Are 3 way ties working correctly?

cabot41 · 07-13-2006, 09:02 PM

This all gets pretty complicated so bear with me.

Last year there was an outside chance that the NYY,BOS and CLE would all end up tied, a situation that has not happened since MLB went to their current 3 division/wildcard playoff structure in 1994. I paid attention to the possible permutations, and I am not sure if those are dealt with accurately here (Post Patch. Thanks for fixing the wildcard thing BTW).

If 3 teams end up tied for the wildcard (and only the wildcard) and they are all from 3 diffrent divisions, a coin flip determines which two teams play in the first single game playoff. THEN, the winner of that games plays the third team (the team that "won" the coin flip or whatever). The winner of that second playoff game is the one that gets into the playoffs (there is no third game, it is not a world cup style round robbin).

OK: If 2 of the three teams that are tied are in the same division, then those two teams play a one game playoff, and the third team, (the team from a different division altogether) plays the winner in a second one game playoff. Again, there is no round robin. I just reached that situation in my sim, and I know that that is not how the sim handles it. Instead the game picks two of the three teams (not sure how) and the third team does not get a chance to participate in a one game playoff against anybody, they are just out of the mix altogether.

AND THEN: If 2 of the 3 teams are tied for the wildcard and for the winning the divison (this was the potential situation IRL from last year) again, the two teams from the same division play first for the win of the division and the loser of that game plays the third team for the wildcard. I don't kinow how the sim handles it as I've never seen it before.

BUT: If there are only two teams tied, that have both clinched the wildcard regardless of the which one wins the division (Which is what ACTUALLY Happened last year with BOS and NY) , there is no one game playoff to determine the division winner and wildcard. Instead, the team with the best head to head record takes the division, and the other one is slotted as the wildcard.
You'll remember that the Yanks didn't need to win the last game of the year against BOS (and in fact did not win that game), because they had already clinched the division because of head to head.

FINALLY: I have no earthly idea what happens when there are 4 team ties.

So, I'm pretty sure OOTP doesn't do this as MLB does it. It is not a big deal, but I did miss the playoffs just now without having the opportunity to play my one game playoff which was mildly dissapointing (In fairness my team didn't deserve to be there anyway, coughing up a 5 game WC lead with 7 to go).

Zeyes · 07-13-2006, 09:22 PM

FWIW, I had a 3-way tie for a division lead a couple of days ago, and the game went into a 3-game round-robin to determine the winner.

Okay, actually it went into two 3-game round-robins because the first round saw each team win one game.

Haven't seen a wild-card three-way tie yet, but I suspect OOTP would solve it the same way.

tysok · 07-13-2006, 09:58 PM

I had a 3 way tie for the wild card... it decided 2 of the teams should play each other and the winner wentto the playoffs... no round robin.

Actually, I do remember last year, Chicago and Cleveland could still have tied for the division at the point when it was announced Chicago had clinched it... because they owned the tiebreaker. I think I remember something similar a day later with the wild card, but not sure.
Need to check out the rules for tie breakers, I remember the possibility for a tie in these things. Boston and New York were going to play one to decide the winner of the division, then Boston would play Cleveland to decide the Wild Card... I was all set for a good old fashion sudden death playoff, but when they said Boston had clinched it Cleveland still had a possibility of tying. No one had any good clear idea of how it was going to be handled either, I heard four different stories.

cabot41 · 07-13-2006, 11:34 PM

I'm pretty sure that MLB does not do a round robin under any circumstances. I know for sure they do not do one for a three way tie for the wild card.

I don't have a problem if OOTP wants to a round robin instead (its arguably more fair that way), but I think it would be nice to make sure that in a 3 way tie, each of the three teams gets a chance to play their way into the playoffs.

tysok · 07-13-2006, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabot41

I'm pretty sure that MLB does not do a round robin under any circumstances. I know for sure they do not do one for a three way tie for the wild card.

I don't have a problem if OOTP wants to a round robin instead (its arguably more fair that way), but I think it would be nice to make sure that in a 3 way tie, each of the three teams gets a chance to play their way into the playoffs.

I agree, they should play their way into the playoffs. I'm not sure that's how it's done in MLB though... but as far as I'm concerned this is one spot where it could deviate and I'd be more than happy about it.

JimG · 07-14-2006, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

I had a 3 way tie for the wild card... it decided 2 of the teams should play each other and the winner wentto the playoffs... no round robin.

Thats definitely a problem. Im OK with round robins because they are more fair and its easier to push back the playoff schedule in a computer game than in real life. But simply leaving the third team out of the equation should be reported as a bug.

cabot41 · 07-14-2006, 03:56 AM

Okay, I'll report throw a post over on the technical problems board.

Le Grande Orange · 07-16-2006, 12:10 AM

This is how MLB resolves three-way ties:

If the tie is for a division title only then teams are designated A, B, and C based on head-to-head records. The first game is then B at A; the winner of that game then hosts C the following day. The winner of that game is the divisional champion.

If the tie involves both a division title and wildcard position the division tie is broken first. If, for example, BOS and NYA are tied for the AL East title but their end-of-season record ties them with CLE of the Central Division for the wildcard spot, the first step is to resolve the tie for the AL East title.

Prior to 2003, the loser of that divisional tiebreaker would have lost out on the wildcard berth, since due to losing the tiebreaker is would have a worse record than than CLE.

However, MLB didn't like the fact a team essentially backed into a playoff berth without actually playing a playoff game, so it changed the rules. Now what happens is that the loser of the BOS-NYA divisional tiebreaking game would then go on to play CLE for the wildcard berth. In other words, whether there is a tie or not is now determined solely by the record after 162 games and the tiebreaking games only determine who advances (even though the stats from the games still count as part of the regular season).

If the tie involves only the wildcard berth then it is broken in the same manner as is the three-way divisional tie.

Prior to 1969, back when a two-way tie was resolved with a best-of-3 series, a three-way tie would have been resolved by a round-robin, as a team had to lose twice before being eliminated from the tiebreaker. The teams were randomly designated as A, B, and C. The first game was B at A; the next day C played at B; on the third day the game is A at C.

If after these first three games any of the teams had lost twice, it was eliminated from the tiebreaker. The remaining two teams would then play on day four, with the site determined by lot. If neither team still had two losses, then on the fifth day the teams would play again, with the visitor from day four being the host team. After this game, one of the teams would have lost twice and would be eliminated.

If instead after the first three games no team had lost twice (i.e. they all had 1-1 records), then the teams drew lots again to designate the teams as A, B, and C. On the fourth day the game was B at A. The winner of that game then hosted C on the fifth day. The winner of that game won the tiebreaker.

07-13-2006, 09:02 PM	#1
cabot41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 78	Are 3 way ties working correctly? This all gets pretty complicated so bear with me. Last year there was an outside chance that the NYY,BOS and CLE would all end up tied, a situation that has not happened since MLB went to their current 3 division/wildcard playoff structure in 1994. I paid attention to the possible permutations, and I am not sure if those are dealt with accurately here (Post Patch. Thanks for fixing the wildcard thing BTW). If 3 teams end up tied for the wildcard (and only the wildcard) and they are all from 3 diffrent divisions, a coin flip determines which two teams play in the first single game playoff. THEN, the winner of that games plays the third team (the team that "won" the coin flip or whatever). The winner of that second playoff game is the one that gets into the playoffs (there is no third game, it is not a world cup style round robbin). OK: If 2 of the three teams that are tied are in the same division, then those two teams play a one game playoff, and the third team, (the team from a different division altogether) plays the winner in a second one game playoff. Again, there is no round robin. I just reached that situation in my sim, and I know that that is not how the sim handles it. Instead the game picks two of the three teams (not sure how) and the third team does not get a chance to participate in a one game playoff against anybody, they are just out of the mix altogether. AND THEN: If 2 of the 3 teams are tied for the wildcard and for the winning the divison (this was the potential situation IRL from last year) again, the two teams from the same division play first for the win of the division and the loser of that game plays the third team for the wildcard. I don't kinow how the sim handles it as I've never seen it before. BUT: If there are only two teams tied, that have both clinched the wildcard regardless of the which one wins the division (Which is what ACTUALLY Happened last year with BOS and NY) , there is no one game playoff to determine the division winner and wildcard. Instead, the team with the best head to head record takes the division, and the other one is slotted as the wildcard. You'll remember that the Yanks didn't need to win the last game of the year against BOS (and in fact did not win that game), because they had already clinched the division because of head to head. FINALLY: I have no earthly idea what happens when there are 4 team ties. So, I'm pretty sure OOTP doesn't do this as MLB does it. It is not a big deal, but I did miss the playoffs just now without having the opportunity to play my one game playoff which was mildly dissapointing (In fairness my team didn't deserve to be there anyway, coughing up a 5 game WC lead with 7 to go). Last edited by cabot41; 07-13-2006 at 09:08 PM.

07-13-2006, 09:22 PM	#2
Zeyes All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 818	FWIW, I had a 3-way tie for a division lead a couple of days ago, and the game went into a 3-game round-robin to determine the winner. Okay, actually it went into two 3-game round-robins because the first round saw each team win one game. Haven't seen a wild-card three-way tie yet, but I suspect OOTP would solve it the same way.

07-13-2006, 09:58 PM	#3
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,925	I had a 3 way tie for the wild card... it decided 2 of the teams should play each other and the winner wentto the playoffs... no round robin. Actually, I do remember last year, Chicago and Cleveland could still have tied for the division at the point when it was announced Chicago had clinched it... because they owned the tiebreaker. I think I remember something similar a day later with the wild card, but not sure. Need to check out the rules for tie breakers, I remember the possibility for a tie in these things. Boston and New York were going to play one to decide the winner of the division, then Boston would play Cleveland to decide the Wild Card... I was all set for a good old fashion sudden death playoff, but when they said Boston had clinched it Cleveland still had a possibility of tying. No one had any good clear idea of how it was going to be handled either, I heard four different stories.

07-13-2006, 11:34 PM	#4
cabot41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 78	I'm pretty sure that MLB does not do a round robin under any circumstances. I know for sure they do not do one for a three way tie for the wild card. I don't have a problem if OOTP wants to a round robin instead (its arguably more fair that way), but I think it would be nice to make sure that in a 3 way tie, each of the three teams gets a chance to play their way into the playoffs.

07-14-2006, 03:56 AM	#7
cabot41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 78	Okay, I'll report throw a post over on the technical problems board.

07-16-2006, 12:10 AM	#8
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	This is how MLB resolves three-way ties: If the tie is for a division title only then teams are designated A, B, and C based on head-to-head records. The first game is then B at A; the winner of that game then hosts C the following day. The winner of that game is the divisional champion. If the tie involves both a division title and wildcard position the division tie is broken first. If, for example, BOS and NYA are tied for the AL East title but their end-of-season record ties them with CLE of the Central Division for the wildcard spot, the first step is to resolve the tie for the AL East title. Prior to 2003, the loser of that divisional tiebreaker would have lost out on the wildcard berth, since due to losing the tiebreaker is would have a worse record than than CLE. However, MLB didn't like the fact a team essentially backed into a playoff berth without actually playing a playoff game, so it changed the rules. Now what happens is that the loser of the BOS-NYA divisional tiebreaking game would then go on to play CLE for the wildcard berth. In other words, whether there is a tie or not is now determined solely by the record after 162 games and the tiebreaking games only determine who advances (even though the stats from the games still count as part of the regular season). If the tie involves only the wildcard berth then it is broken in the same manner as is the three-way divisional tie. Prior to 1969, back when a two-way tie was resolved with a best-of-3 series, a three-way tie would have been resolved by a round-robin, as a team had to lose twice before being eliminated from the tiebreaker. The teams were randomly designated as A, B, and C. The first game was B at A; the next day C played at B; on the third day the game is A at C. If after these first three games any of the teams had lost twice, it was eliminated from the tiebreaker. The remaining two teams would then play on day four, with the site determined by lot. If neither team still had two losses, then on the fifth day the teams would play again, with the visitor from day four being the host team. After this game, one of the teams would have lost twice and would be eliminated. If instead after the first three games no team had lost twice (i.e. they all had 1-1 records), then the teams drew lots again to designate the teams as A, B, and C. On the fourth day the game was B at A. The winner of that game then hosted C on the fifth day. The winner of that game won the tiebreaker.