Is this a trend???

[HolyCow98]

Honestly I believe that alot of the features that people miss from the old game well make its way back eventually (trade block, milestones etc).

[BigMember]

Originally Posted by Rod

Maybe it has something to do with the American culture at large? Not much patience... a bit shallow...

Good grief.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Spielman

Good grief.

"

Spielman, you need to add in your "troll = lose" statement that adding the whole political rah-rah into an arguement is an instant lose. Why this off-topic was brought up is beyond me.

Back on topic, I've also noticed that this seems to be the case that for different markets there is a majority where certain games are preferred over others. . I'll also echo that the direction that it is going is the natural evolution of this, as I've also found that the older version was becoming too confining for waht I wanted to do with it.

[Twelvefield]

The major gaming studios are by and large in North America. There are a number of fairly large sub-contactors elsewhere, but many of the big boardrooms are here. Big corporate structures don't like taking a lot of risks. Big game companies publish the safest games they can get away with.

Little gaming companies are all over the place, but currently, the better ones are in Canada, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, & Korea (maybe China). The little companies feel they have to create a product with more "edge" to it to innovate and take away a chunk of the market from the big ones.

Who you chose to buy your games from will say a lot as to what sort of gaming trend you would see. I like to buy games from smaller studios, but I do have a big MS product that's been on my hard drive in one form or another since 1998.

[JimG]

Originally Posted by Twelvefield

I like to buy games from smaller studios, but I do have a big MS product that's been on my hard drive in one form or another since 1998.

Yep its called "Windows" and everytime I uninstall it my computer stops working.



Seriously though PureSim, DiamondMind, Mogul, DolphinSim, Action! PC, Lance Haffner, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, High Heat. All in America I think. OOTP is the exception not the rule. The Lahman DB without which I wouldnt play OOTP is also red white and blue.

And EA's baseball game has always been made in Canada.

So "Buy American! (except for OoTP)"

[JimG]

Originally Posted by Twelvefield

The major gaming studios are by and large in North America. There are a number of fairly large sub-contactors elsewhere, but many of the big boardrooms are here.

Fyi Sega's boardroom is in Japan. Lets hope that means a longer leash for OoTp. Atari, UbiSoft, Nintendo, Sony, Namco, Vivendi, Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai, Codemasters -- considering how many games North Americans buy I'm surprised how many boardrooms are elsehwhere.

Jim

[treedom]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

If this is the premise behind your posts lately you are dead wrong. There was plenty that could have been done with OOTP 6.5. I'm not saying it's wrong to have taken the course that they have, but the idea that the prior game could not have been improved is silly.

I could see it if the code-base had become too unwieldy. I don't think Markus had been using an object-oriented approach, and, for something of OOTP's complexity, to use a procedural approach, which isn't as scalable, could get very unmanageable after a version or six. Also, I remember Markus saying stuff like that he had to work some magic to get HRAs stored in the career pitching stats. To me that means hack. Enough hacks over time, and you've got a big mess on your hands. It can get to the point where any little change you make can have very unexpected results, and become a much bigger job than it should. Sometimes it becomes next to impossible. Maybe that's why he couldn't get financial coefficient, which on the surface seems like such a small thing, to work. Nevermind H2H.

Also there was the database and its limitations. I suspect Markus had been using some sort of an array to store all the active players, and tying the player ID's to their position in the array. Retired players were taken out and the holes were filled in with the ammys coming in. That's why the numbers were always recycled. This seemed to me like a big limitation in taking the game to the next level (such as having built in cato which we were harassing him about). And, again, if you're not using an OO approach, changing that very fundamental part of the code might have been a bigger pain than scraping the whole thing and doing a complete rewrite.

Of course I'm just speculating here, but I can see how, code-base wise, the first "generation" of OOTP may have reached a bit of a dead end with v6.

[rudel.dietrich]

This game is not half as complex as FM

As soon as Markus joined SI and I saw the direction the game was taking I knew this would happen.
Some people will adapt, others will not. The game will pick up new people along the way and all will be well a few months down the road.
By the time OOTP reaches the point where FM is right now then it will be a contender for the best text sim on the market (which FM cleary is at the moment)
OOTP X was a a very simple game compared to 2006 and people who have never played FM or EHM (and most of you have not) are still reacting to the initial shock.
I expect in about three months many of you will be over it and enjoying the new game.
Some of you never will get over it and will move on.

OOTP was to a point where Markus could not really take it any further. The game was in danger of stagnating like Baseball Mogul (and many other series) have.
Instead of watching that happen Markus seized the thing by the horns and gave it a new life.

I think he did the right thing. Some will not be able to handle it and will be left behind to move on.
There is nothing wrong with that. Complex text sims are not for everyone.
But I think the majority will get used to it and come to accept that the game is better or will someday be better and the new game will attract many new fans and one day be the FM of the baseball genre.

Very exciting time to be a PC baseball fan

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by treedom

I could see it if the code-base had become too unwieldy. I don't think Markus had been using an object-oriented approach, and, for something of OOTP's complexity, to use a procedural approach, which isn't as scalable, could get very unmanageable after a version or six. Also, I remember Markus saying stuff like that he had to work some magic to get HRAs stored in the career pitching stats. To me that means hack. Enough hacks over time, and you've got a big mess on your hands. It can get to the point where any little change you make can have very unexpected results, and become a much bigger job than it should. Sometimes it becomes next to impossible. Maybe that's why he couldn't get financial coefficient, which on the surface seems like such a small thing, to work. Nevermind H2H.

Also there was the database and its limitations. I suspect Markus had been using some sort of an array to store all the active players, and tying the player ID's to their position in the array. Retired players were taken out and the holes were filled in with the ammys coming in. That's why the numbers were always recycled. This seemed to me like a big limitation in taking the game to the next level (such as having built in cato which we were harassing him about). And, again, if you're not using an OO approach, changing that very fundamental part of the code might have been a bigger pain than scraping the whole thing and doing a complete rewrite.

Of course I'm just speculating here, but I can see how, code-base wise, the first "generation" of OOTP may have reached a bit of a dead end with v6.

hey it's a well speculated post IMO. COnsidering the lenght that this game has been out in the marketplace, its entirely possible that its original codebase could have been made pre-OOP standard.

By adapting and updating with new tech, the game improves and scales much better than ever before

[kcfan]

Where to start:

How about this: Europeans/Canadians are clearly the biggest chunk of people who would be interested in many of the other SI offerings due to the sports they cover, which use this interface. As such, to them this isn't a big problem.

Americans, here, who have bought and supported OOTP since the beginning, perhaps never touched the other SI products, because they didn't cover baseball, but rather stuff like soccer and hockey.

Sheesh.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

By the time OOTP reaches the point where FM is right now then it will be a contender for the best text sim on the market (which FM cleary is at the moment)...

It may be, but for me, its lack of customization and historical capabilities knock its score down a lot.

I just hate being locked into current-day worlds with no flexibility...

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It may be, but for me, its lack of customization and historical capabilities knock its score down a lot.

I just hate being locked into current-day worlds with no flexibility...

""!

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by kcfan

Where to start:

How about this: Europeans/Canadians are clearly the biggest chunk of people who would be interested in many of the other SI offerings due to the sports they cover, which use this interface. As such, to them this isn't a big problem.

Americans, here, who have bought and supported OOTP since the beginning, perhaps never touched the other SI products, because they didn't cover baseball, but rather stuff like soccer and hockey.

Sheesh.

umm.....thanks......I think.......

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It may be, but for me, its lack of customization and historical capabilities knock its score down a lot.

I just hate being locked into current-day worlds with no flexibility...

Of course, customisation and historical replay aren't such an issue for a football game - it's just not so stats-focused a game over time. It would also be virtually impossible to create - the world of football is much larger than baseball. I don't think it would be possible to recreate teams and real players for even the top couple of leagues in England back to their formation, let alone lower divisions, other countries (even major ones), etc. Football doesn't allow you to recreate a player's ability purely from stats, as baseball can to some extent. Just not possible for football. The most that could be done would be subjective ratings for relatively big clubs/leagues back to maybe the 50s, and even that would be a huge amount of work and incomplete.

On the interface issue as a long time FM player, I think some of the issues some players are having are partly because the OOTP interface isn't actually the same as or quite as good as the FM interface yet. There are a few screens which I'd say are badly laid out, with too much scrolling and not remembering where you were (for instance, I'd prefer the team Transactions Overview to use all of the screen for Majors and AAA; if I want to see the DL I select the DL view, if I want to see all minors, I select a minors view...). I've taken a quick look at the XML and it seems to be less easily skinnable than FM, at first glance.

These issues will get ironed out. CM4, the first incarnation of the current 'major' iteration of FM had similar issues with not remembering views and custom filters etc when moving to a player and back again. Some new Skins will emerge which deal with some layout issues or make certain navigation more intuitive, etc.

[kroney37]

I agree with kcfan in that I'm Canadian and I played the first EHM/Eastside up to when I bought the latest EHM and I've played at least the demos of the CM/FM series. Still waiting to buy this OOTP, but I know I will once I've got the time to play it.

I haven't bought OOTP yet, but based on my experience from EHM, I'll be dissapointed in the fact that the interface wasn't up to FM standards, yet I'll love it because it's better than any other baseball sim out there. In some ways, I think this is a flawed comparison, because when you compare OOTP/EHM to FM, you're comparing the first game of a series to a very refined, incredibly complicated game. Having said that, I agree with redmarkyankees that I'm gonna buy OOTP (and bought EHM) because it uses the FM architecture, and I hope I'm using that word correctly.

I have a feeling that there are a lot of other North American fans that played either FM or EHM and loved 'em, and that was a big factor in deciding to buy OOTP. It's too bad that there are people out there who don't like the game because they're not used to the interface or because it isn't as refined as FM; that's unfortunate, but from what I've seen, this is the right path to follow.

[JimG]

Originally Posted by lahoward

Hmm many say that America is no longer a superpower but a Hyperpower as no one is even in the same league. So pick on America all you like but when you have some evil dictator take over your country guess who you will call.

An evil dictator took over my country. Who do I call?

Jim

P.S. I live in Seattle.

[Raidergoo]

Now I remember why I had him on ignore.

[Zitofan75]

Why did this thread come back from the mire?

[Whitey]

I've had a notion that I have been reluctant to address on these boards but, despite the risk of a slight highjack, this thread might be a good place to pitch it out. Now, mind you, I'm asking sincerely and basically out of ignorance.

Is it me, or do Europeans not value history and tradition as much as the American baseball fan might? While OOTP is the best baseball sim ever produced in mind, and I have been simming since I was about 7 years old (some 38 years ago), the history build has lacked. It is better than it ever has been now with the use of Cato features in 2006 but the old almanac always seemed like an afterthought.

In 2006, creating world baseball leagues have seemingly taken a front seat to the history build. Leaving out accomplishments in the original release, leaving out non-human manager records, game records, team records, etc have led me to this notion. Maybe I am misled and maybe later versions will include these things that every died-in-the wool American baseball fan deems vital to the knowledge of their league or baseball universe.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Now I remember why I had him on ignore.

""