Financials w/o Free agents

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 12:43 PM

Anyone tell me a reason to have financials in a league without free agency?

I thought it would be cool, but everyone just makes the minimum salary...

Mike Donlin · 07-06-2006, 12:54 PM

Well, one reason is that when a league transitions to free agency, you want the best performing teams (and therefore the richest) to have an advantage in signing and retaining free agents.

A second reason is that for years teams purchased players from minor league teams. The better, more financially succesful teams could afford to purchase the better players from the minors. Not for nothing did Mantle and Dimaggio end up with the Yankees.

ctorg · 07-06-2006, 12:54 PM

Really? I hadn't tried it. That's not right.

In real baseball, I believe players could hold out and not play unless they were paid what they felt they deserved. If this could be coded into the game, it would make it work much better.

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

Well, one reason is that when a league transitions to free agency, you want the best performing teams (and therefore the richest) to have an advantage in signing and retaining free agents.

A second reason is that for years teams purchased players from minor league teams. The better, more financially succesful teams could afford to purchase the better players from the minors. Not for nothing did Mantle and Dimaggio end up with the Yankees.

I've tried to set up a free minor league system, but can't get it to work...

Good players are just staying in the low minors for a couple of years and then going to the majors. No movement up the ladder, like I hoped...

I think Mantle came along after the free minors, anyway...

Mike Donlin · 07-06-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

Really? I hadn't tried it. That's not right.

In real baseball, I believe players could hold out and not play unless they were paid what they felt they deserved. If this could be coded into the game, it would make it work much better.

That's why it's cool to have financials on, free agency off, but arbitration on after 1 year. That way, players still end up having their salary reflect their performance, and while no one will hold out, it's a bit more realistic.

Mike Donlin · 07-06-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I've tried to set up a free minor league system, but can't get it to work...

Good players are just staying in the low minors for a couple of years and then going to the majors. No movement up the ladder, like I hoped...

I think Mantle came along after the free minors, anyway...

I think you're right about Mantle.

You can't get this to work at all, huh? Even with free agency set at one year in those leagues? Have you staggered financials for each league? I think the new patch is supposed to tweak this a bit, but I could have just wanted to see that listed. That is, players would settle for what they should make in their league--without considering what they could make in another, higher league.

Let's hope this gets fixed as it is absolutely necessary for a world/universe set-up.

ctorg · 07-06-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

That's why it's cool to have financials on, free agency off, but arbitration on after 1 year. That way, players still end up having their salary reflect their performance, and while no one will hold out, it's a bit more realistic.

Ah, that works better. I thought he was saying that they would always get league minimum throughout their careers, which would have been disappointing. I haven't even tried turning off financials yet.

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

I think you're right about Mantle.

You can't get this to work at all, huh? Even with free agency set at one year in those leagues? Have you staggered financials for each league? I think the new patch is supposed to tweak this a bit, but I could have just wanted to see that listed. That is, players would settle for what they should make in their league--without considering what they could make in another, higher league.

Let's hope this gets fixed as it is absolutely necessary for a world/universe set-up.

I've tried MANY setups, with HUGE financial differences in the minor league levels, 1 year for Free agency, but the good players usually follow the same pattern 2 or 3 years in rookie ball and then to the majors...

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

That's why it's cool to have financials on, free agency off, but arbitration on after 1 year. That way, players still end up having their salary reflect their performance, and while no one will hold out, it's a bit more realistic.

I done exactly that, but 90% of the players are making the minimum...

Mike Donlin · 07-06-2006, 02:30 PM

Hmm. Neither of these things is encouraging.

It might be worth asking Markus if the arbitration off, free agency off thing is working.

Let me ask you a question. Is the 10% of players who are not making the minimum those who were in the original draft pool at creation, or are they really making arbitration-determined salaries?

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

Hmm. Neither of these things is encouraging.

It might be worth asking Markus if the arbitration off, free agency off thing is working.

Let me ask you a question. Is the 10% of players who are not making the minimum those who were in the original draft pool at creation, or are they really making arbitration-determined salaries?

The league is currently 30 years in, so I don't think they were in the initial draft. The highest paid player is making $1,700,000 per season (1.000 Coeff.).

I've read somewhere that non-FA has been tweaked, but not sure exactly how in Patch 2...

CBL-Commish · 07-06-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I've tried MANY setups, with HUGE financial differences in the minor league levels, 1 year for Free agency, but the good players usually follow the same pattern 2 or 3 years in rookie ball and then to the majors...

Are you sure you know what would happen in a free minors system? I know it shouldn't be the case where most players go from rookie ball to A to AA to AAA to the majors. I'd expect a wide variety of outcomes, but you'd have a lot of cases where players would jump from the low minors to the majors.

Without a minor league system to stash developing players a major league team would be pretty likely to use a 20-year-old kid with huge talent as a bench player. The alternative would be waiting for him to develop, slowly climbing up the ladder, all the while risking some other big league team snarfing him up first. There were a lot more teenagers in early major league baseball, and a lot of it was due to the fact that the major league teams had far fewer options to farm players out.

Questdog · 07-06-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Are you sure you know what would happen in a free minors system? I know it shouldn't be the case where most players go from rookie ball to A to AA to AAA to the majors. I'd expect a wide variety of outcomes, but you'd have a lot of cases where players would jump from the low minors to the majors.

Without a minor league system to stash developing players a major league team would be pretty likely to use a 20-year-old kid with huge talent as a bench player. The alternative would be waiting for him to develop, slowly climbing up the ladder, all the while risking some other big league team snarfing him up first. There were a lot more teenagers in early major league baseball, and a lot of it was due to the fact that the major league teams had far fewer options to farm players out.

Variety would be good; I'm seeing no variety...

Vholes · 07-07-2006, 09:49 AM

Questdog,

Since this game came out, I've been struggling to put together a league setup that will allow me to run reserve rule-era economics on the major league level in combination with a free minors.

Last night, I finally had a test sim give me the results I wanted for this, save for one small issue, which is supposedly being fixed by the patch today. I'll post a fuller report once I have a chance to rerun my test league on the patched version.

One important tip for this kind of setup. Do NOT turn off free agency. Instead, set free agency at 12 years and set the days required to one service year at 999 (you can do this, for some reason). I've found that if you do this, the game will behave as if there was free agency, but no player in the majors will ever actually become a free agent. This seems to be important in terms of getting the game to behave properly in terms of the major league teams signing players from the free minors.

Mike Donlin · 07-07-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vholes

Questdog,

Since this game came out, I've been struggling to put together a league setup that will allow me to run reserve rule-era economics on the major league level in combination with a free minors.

Last night, I finally had a test sim give me the results I wanted for this, save for one small issue, which is supposedly being fixed by the patch today. I'll post a fuller report once I have a chance to rerun my test league on the patched version.

One important tip for this kind of setup. Do NOT turn off free agency. Instead, set free agency at 12 years and set the days required to one service year at 999 (you can do this, for some reason). I've found that if you do this, the game will behave as if there was free agency, but no player in the majors will ever actually become a free agent. This seems to be important in terms of getting the game to behave properly in terms of the major league teams signing players from the free minors.

Hmm. Fascinating. It would be cool if this works.

Markus Heinsohn · 07-07-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Anyone tell me a reason to have financials in a league without free agency?

I thought it would be cool, but everyone just makes the minimum salary...

That'll be fixed by the patch... now in league without FA, player whose contracts expire get a new contract based on ratings and performance, sort of like arbitration...

DreamTeams · 07-07-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That'll be fixed by the patch... now in league without FA, player whose contracts expire get a new contract based on ratings and performance, sort of like arbitration...

Sweet!

Gil Thorp · 07-07-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That'll be fixed by the patch... now in league without FA, player whose contracts expire get a new contract based on ratings and performance, sort of like arbitration...

How well is the game handling the situation when a team can't afford to resign some of its players?

07-06-2006, 12:43 PM	#1
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	Financials w/o Free agents Anyone tell me a reason to have financials in a league without free agency? I thought it would be cool, but everyone just makes the minimum salary...

07-06-2006, 12:54 PM	#3
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	Really? I hadn't tried it. That's not right. In real baseball, I believe players could hold out and not play unless they were paid what they felt they deserved. If this could be coded into the game, it would make it work much better. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

07-06-2006, 12:54 PM	#2
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Life, friends, is boring. Posts: 840	Well, one reason is that when a league transitions to free agency, you want the best performing teams (and therefore the richest) to have an advantage in signing and retaining free agents. A second reason is that for years teams purchased players from minor league teams. The better, more financially succesful teams could afford to purchase the better players from the minors. Not for nothing did Mantle and Dimaggio end up with the Yankees.

07-06-2006, 02:30 PM	#10
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Life, friends, is boring. Posts: 840	Hmm. Neither of these things is encouraging. It might be worth asking Markus if the arbitration off, free agency off thing is working. Let me ask you a question. Is the 10% of players who are not making the minimum those who were in the original draft pool at creation, or are they really making arbitration-determined salaries?

07-07-2006, 09:49 AM	#14
Vholes Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 28	Questdog, Since this game came out, I've been struggling to put together a league setup that will allow me to run reserve rule-era economics on the major league level in combination with a free minors. Last night, I finally had a test sim give me the results I wanted for this, save for one small issue, which is supposedly being fixed by the patch today. I'll post a fuller report once I have a chance to rerun my test league on the patched version. One important tip for this kind of setup. Do NOT turn off free agency. Instead, set free agency at 12 years and set the days required to one service year at 999 (you can do this, for some reason). I've found that if you do this, the game will behave as if there was free agency, but no player in the majors will ever actually become a free agent. This seems to be important in terms of getting the game to behave properly in terms of the major league teams signing players from the free minors.