AVG v OBP

[Mariners]

If you're looking for a player to bring into your club, which of these two stats do you think is the more important, Average or On Base Percentage?

[Gastric ReFlux]

OBP, AVG is a subset of OBP.

Of course, then there is also the issue of slugging to be considered.

[ctorg]

One stat I'd like to see is something along the lines of OBP*2+SLG. I think OBP and SLG are important, but OBP is a good deal more so. It's probably the most important of the basic stats. It basically gives you how often the guy manages not to create an out.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by ctorg

One stat I'd like to see is something along the lines of OBP*2+SLG.

That would be giving quite a bit too much weight to OBP... It would probably be something more along the lines of OBP*1.3 + SLG in order to be accurate.

...to answer the question... OBP... AVG tells you a bit, but way less than OBP does.

[Russ]

Similar to Gross Production Average.

Gross Production Average, a variation of OPS, but more accurate and easier to interpret. The exact formula is (OBP*1.8+SLG)/4, adjusted for ballpark factor. The scale of GPA is similar to BA: .200 is lousy, .265 is around average and .300 is a star.

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally Posted by Russ

Similar to Gross Production Average.

Gross Production Average, a variation of OPS, but more accurate and easier to interpret. The exact formula is (OBP*1.8+SLG)/4, adjusted for ballpark factor. The scale of GPA is similar to BA: .200 is lousy, .265 is around average and .300 is a star.

jgross68PA = GPA * player's age

edit cuz my typing skillz totally suk today

[marky32082]

I personally like SLOB if you need to combine OBP and SLG. Essentially it's just OBP x SLG which is very similar to the much more popular OPS (OBP + SLG).

As it was once explained to me, it is inherently more valuable to have both a high OBP and SLG than one much higher than the other.

For example a hitter with a .300 OBP and .550 (Andre Dawson Type Player) SLG compared to a hitter with a .400 OBP and a .450 SLG (Wade Boggs Type Player).

Obviously they are both valuable players but looking at OPS and SLOB:

Dawson: OPS: .850 SLOB: .165
Boggs: OPS: .850 SLOB: .180

Personally I would rather have Boggs.

[Mariners]

Interesting stuff so far, my heads beginning to spin with all these abbreviations. I'm just a rookie Brit you know, so I'm still taking all this stuff in.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Mariners

Interesting stuff so far, my heads beginning to spin with all these abbreviations. I'm just a rookie Brit you know, so I'm still taking all this stuff in.

So start with this: An average OBP in the majors today is just about .330-.335, and an average SLG is just about .425-.430.

Those are the two most basic benchmarks you need to know when evaluating a guy's raw statistics.

[thomasthomas]

Originally Posted by Mariners

Interesting stuff so far, my heads beginning to spin with all these abbreviations. I'm just a rookie Brit you know, so I'm still taking all this stuff in.

Here's a list of a whole bunch of statistical abbrevitations and explanations of stats ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...stats/glossary

[fauteuil7]

Originally Posted by Mariners

Interesting stuff so far, my heads beginning to spin with all these abbreviations. I'm just a rookie Brit you know, so I'm still taking all this stuff in.

Generally you want the first couple of guys in your lineup to have a high on-base percentage to set up three through five in your lineup who are your power hitters. The number three guy should have good power and a high on-base percentage, while it's nice to have a 4 and 5 like that, but that's just a bonus. An ideal first inning would be that your leadoff guy gets on base, maybe steals second, your #2 guy singles or makes a productive out to move the leadoff batter to third, and then your sluggers 3-4-5 have a good chance with either one or no outs to score him from third.

This is kind of a simplified old-school strategy (I haven't gotten deeply into the Sabermetrics thing) but when you're putting a team together it's good to have roles in mind. If you look at the Yankees lineup now (when everyone's healthy at least) they have Damon who is a speedy guy with a good OBP 1st, then Jeter who also gets on base a lot but is a good situational hitter, then Giambi 3rd who can smack the ball out of the park but also is among the league leaders in OBP. Joe Torre doesn't deviate from that top three very often, so it's a good example of that model, followed by however you want to arrange your $20 million/year power hitters, if you are so fortunate (although it's not doing the Yanks any good since they have one, two good pitchers, tops).

[Ruthian23]

OBP. I'm not too high on average as a stat. I look at it when I'm evaluating a player because I like to look at all of the data that's available, but it comes far after things like OPS+, OBP/SLG, and a host of other things for me.

[thomasthomas]

I wonder if baseball broadcasts will ever display OPS for the hitter, instead of the traditional AVG-HR-RBI. That would be nice to see.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by fauteuil7

This is kind of a simplified old-school strategy (I haven't gotten deeply into the Sabermetrics thing) but when you're putting a team together it's good to have roles in mind. If you look at the Yankees lineup now (when everyone's healthy at least) they have Damon who is a speedy guy with a good OBP 1st, then Jeter who also gets on base a lot but is a good situational hitter, then Giambi 3rd who can smack the ball out of the park but also is among the league leaders in OBP.

Personally, I don't believe in building a team around "roles" for hitters as much as most people. I think that you're either a good hitter or you're not. I'd much rather have nine Jason Giambis or Alex Rodriguezes in my lineup than a "well balanced" lineup with a guy like Damon leading off. (Not that Damon's a bad hitter, he's not, but if I could have another Jason Giambi leading off, even though he's not your prototypical leadoff hitter, I'd score a lot more runs than with Damon leading off.) If there's a guy out there who is fast and gets on base a good amount, and a guy out there who is slow, gets on base more than the fast guy, and hits for good power, and I lost my leadoff hitter to FA, and they both play the same position, I'd still rather have the non "leadoff type," because he's a better hitter and thus will mean more runs for me.

I'm not into "smallball" as a viable strategy in most cases, anyway, so if my leadoff hitter doesn't steal any bases, that's fine with me.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by thomasthomas

I wonder if baseball broadcasts will ever display OPS for the hitter, instead of the traditional AVG-HR-RBI. That would be nice to see.

I hope for that some day, too. On the YES Network (the Yankees network) they have started displaying OBP, which is a step in the right direction. I don't know how many other broadcasts do that, though.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by Ruthian23

I hope for that some day, too. On the YES Network (the Yankees network) they have started displaying OBP, which is a step in the right direction. I don't know how many other broadcasts do that, though.

Most do, I think. Even Coors Field (and, I assume, other parks) is including OBP on the scoreboard now. Which is a start.

To your earlier point, I'd guess the 9 Giambi's lineup would score you more runs, despite the worse baserunning, because they'd be on base a lot more and they'd always have Jason Giambi hitting behind them to drive them in. But I wouldn't really want a lineup of Jason Giambi's for defensive reasons. Defense, I think, is the most underrated thing by statheads(including myself) because it hasn't been accurately quantified yet.

I have a small issue with SLG, too, I should say, because it supposes perfect increases in value for each base. Is a triple really three times as valuable as a single? A home run is twice as valuable as a double? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Mariners

Interesting stuff so far, my heads beginning to spin with all these abbreviations. I'm just a rookie Brit you know, so I'm still taking all this stuff in.

Welcome to the greatest game in the world, man! (This coming from an avid footie fan...) Your being new to the game should actually help you with these "advanced" statistics. For the most part, they're just common sense that people who've known baseball for a long time don't understand since they're different than what we're used to.

And, to answer your question, OBP is better than AVG because AVG only tells part of the story.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by attackemu

Most do, I think. Even Coors Field (and, I assume, other parks) is including OBP on the scoreboard now. Which is a start.

To your earlier point, I'd guess the 9 Giambi's lineup would score you more runs, despite the worse baserunning, because they'd be on base a lot more and they'd always have Jason Giambi hitting behind them to drive them in. But I wouldn't really want a lineup of Jason Giambi's for defensive reasons. Defense, I think, is the most underrated thing by statheads(including myself) because it hasn't been accurately quantified yet.

I have a small issue with SLG, too, I should say, because it supposes perfect increases in value for each base. Is a triple really three times as valuable as a single? A home run is twice as valuable as a double? I doubt it.

I think he was talking about TV coverage, though, not the scoreboards at games. I could be mistaken.

I think that baserunning is a bit overrated by some. It can win you a few more games, but I've seen some studies on the Hardball Times and elsewhere that found that the difference between the best baserunners and the worst baserunners is only a few games a year. The difference between the best and worst hitters is much larger. As for defense, yeah. I obviously wasn't saying nine 1B Jason Giambis-more like 9 players who are mediocre to poor defensively like Giambi but are at their natural position. I tend to think that even with the poor defense, the offensive abilities would make up for it, though.

As for your point about SLG%, I agree as well. I especially don't like that triples are counted as times 3 while doubles are times 2, since triples are less of a measure of slugging than of speed.

[Mariners]

All good stuff guys, thanks very much for your valued input.

[Doibhilin]

I have a small issue with SLG, too, I should say, because it supposes perfect increases in value for each base. Is a triple really three times as valuable as a single? A home run is twice as valuable as a double? I doubt it.

It's not a valuation. SLG is the average number of bases you hit for per at bat. Nobody is saying that a triple is worth three times a single; the statistic measures power by showing you how many bases a guy takes on average.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by Doibhilin

It's not a valuation. SLG is the average number of bases you hit for per at bat. Nobody is saying that a triple is worth three times a single; the statistic measures power by showing you how many bases a guy takes on average.

But that doesn't really measure power effectively, is my point.