HoF additions?

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I take it that you must not have read what I posted.

Rose doesn't get to be voted on for a reason.

1. The specifically decreed punishment for the rule Rose admits to violating is permanent ineligibility (see MLB Rule 21d)

2. Permanently ineligible people are not eligible for admission to the Hall of Fame (see HoF Rule 3E)

Rose broke the rules and he's getting the exact, specified punishment that he earned.

That's more like it.

Unlike those unquantifiables you posted earlier.

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by jarmenia

When did Mcgwire get inducted into the hall of fame? His first year of eligiblity is next year. Also, the only thing he admitted to (unless you count the hearing in congress) was that he took Andro and that was not a baned substance in the ML nor illegain under US law.

Sorry, miss type. I meant to say will be inducted. I was typing fast and got ahead of my thoughts.

Thanks for pointing that out!

[jm47048]

Despite what the rules say, the commissioner has the right to over turn any rule, and whether you agree with banning Rose or not, he was made an example. Perahps MD is right, perhaps he did get the punishment he deserved as written in the rules, but there is always room in the commissioners office. They could have said he can no longer be a manager, etc, etc. He was allowed to be on the All Century team right? I think ESPN had to get special permissions to even have him be allowed in a baseball stadium just for that. Its ridiculas. The man's a legend and he screwed up, but I still think he was made an example to other players and such. You can't tell me he was the only one to have done it, and you can't tell me he was the only one caught. It was made a big deal because it was Rose.

[cdheer]

Ridiculous.

You can assert that others have been caught but not treated the same...but how about some examples?

What Rose did damages the integrity of the game more than anything else, including steroid use. Why?

Rose mentions that he never bet on the Reds to lose. Which is fine, I suppose, except betting on them to win is almost as bad. Might he leave his starter out there a bit longer with money on the line? Or not rest his big bat, who needs a day off but Rose needs a win? Or...well, you get the idea.

He did it, as Mal pointed out, because by his own admission he thought he could get away with it. He's lied repeatedly over the years about it. And when he finally did admit it, it was in the most self-serving manner possible: to sell a book. He still was not apologetic, and clearly does not think he actually did anything wrong.

He's a cheat and should never, ever be allowed in the HOF.

As to the 'roids crew...except for Bonds and Palmiero, we don't really have any evidence that steroids were involved. Now, do I think that Sammy Sosa was on some kind of performance-enhancing substance? Absolutely. But I can't prove it beyond a resonable doubt...in fact, I can't even show a preponderance of evidence. So at this point, a guy like Sammy has to be considered on the basis of his performance and known activities (corked bat).

As for Bonds...we certainly have some evidence, based on Game of Shadows. But even if we say that that is enough -- and I'm not sure we can, but let's assume it for the sake of discussion -- steroids have only been banned for a couple of years, and the penalty for taking them is not a lifetime ban until after several successive positive tests, right?

So...Bonds in, though I'm not totally thrilled with it. Rose out.

Rose did not just make a mistake. He took many deliberate actions that got him where he is today, and to suggest otherwise is to simply ignore the truth.

--chris

[Russ]

Rose was not made an example of. If the rules say that if you bet on your own team, you will be banned for life, and he's banned for life for betting on his own team, that's called following the rules. It's not making an example of him. I think Bud's an idiot most of the time, but he got this one right. Pete Rose. Big dummy.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Not just no but Hell no - forever.

=================

Rules for Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by Members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA)

"5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

by that lot half of the next generation wouldnt' make it.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Russ

Rose was not made an example of. If the rules say that if you bet on your own team, you will be banned for life, and he's banned for life for betting on his own team, that's called following the rules. It's not making an example of him. I think Bud's an idiot most of the time, but he got this one right. Pete Rose. Big dummy.

actually wasn't it Giamanti that banned him, not Selig?

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

by that lot half of the next generation wouldnt' make it.

That's my point. How about all the players who took cocaine and got suspended over and over? Or took steroids even before they were illegal? Or did a lot of drinking? Or corked his bat? Or whatever? Not as bad as betting but certainly not positive for "integrity, sportsmanship, character." So should all these people not be allowed in the Hall?

Imo a player should be in the HOF or not based on a vote. He should not be arbitrarily eliminated from consideration because of a rules violation or somebody's interpretation of integrity. It's a separate issue from being banned from baseball.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

actually wasn't it Giamanti that banned him, not Selig?

Yeah, but Selig's been under the most pressure to let him back in. Should have clarified.

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by Russ

Rose was not made an example of. If the rules say that if you bet on your own team, you will be banned for life, and he's banned for life for betting on his own team, that's called following the rules. It's not making an example of him. I think Bud's an idiot most of the time, but he got this one right. Pete Rose. Big dummy.

I have one rebuttle for you on Selig....

Selig did not make this call. Those before him did. But what Selig did do, up until now, is ignore the request for being allowed back into baseball.

[jm47048]

Ooops, I should have kept reading. Sorry. That was already pointed out by other posters.

[Kyros]

Originally Posted by Kyros

Sorry if this has already been answered but how will HoF selections be done in OOTPBB2006 and what will the qualifing factors be to be voted into the HoF? In 6.5 you could change some of the qualifing factors that would get a player into the HoF. Will this also be the case? For example, if I wanted to change the number of wins that a pitcher must have in order to be even considered for the HoF can I do this AND if I may ask, can any of the beta testers or Markus/Marc post what the options will be if we are allowed to change the HoF qualifing factors? I nice simple post/reply would be outstanding fellas.

just a bump for this post

[His Own Bad Self]

Has anyone asked that there be an option to enable/disable the automatic stat thresholds for induction? I get tired of having to manually edit them all when I start a new league. I propose such a feature if it's not already in play.

[Luis_Rivera]

I always shut the thresholds off and manually induct people.

edit: well not "shut off" but make impossible to reach

[soundsradio]

I respect the rules of baseball but you you cannot them arbitrarily. Ty Coob, the greatest hitter of all time was implicated in 1926 in a gambling scandal by another player. He, along with Joe Wood and Tris Speaker were accused by Dutch Leonard of fixing a game in 1919. Leonard even supplied a letter written by Cobb as evidence. The matter was presented to Commisioner Landis, who declined to investigate futher. Many believe Landis felt baseball could not bear another scandal. In the area of integrity, Cobb was also deficient. Niekro was caught cheating in the game and admitted using banned substances to doctor the ball.

Rose should be elected as a player, not as a manager. I also agree that he should not be allowed to be a part of major league baseball again. As a coach, spring training instructor, minor league, whatever.

As for McGwire, he has never been caught using steroids and even if he admits it now, they were not banned by baseball until he was gone. They were illegal, but then you'd have to go back and expunge the recors of all players caught using illegal drugs, performance enhancing or not. That includes pot, cocaine, amphetamines, etc. You would have to erase the records of at least Bill Lee and Tug McGraw, two self admitted pot smokers

As for Bonds, his hall of fame creds were secure even before he supposedly (and most likely) started steroid cycles. Look at his career numbers before 1998, he still would have hit 500 homers easily, stolen 600 bases, won multiple gold gloves, etc. That may be the saddest part of the whole Bonds scandal. He was not Brady Anderson, who went from 0 to 60 in six seconds. Bonds was already doing 100 mph, steroids may have just upped him to 110 mph. He did not need the steroids to have a HOF career.

[bigjas]

I never did get the position of people who say that Rose shouldn't be in the HOF, but Joe Jackson should. What Jackson, Weaver, Cicotte, and the others did was far worse than what Rose did. They conspired to throw a World Series.

Personally, I would like to see Rose get reinstated. I'm biased though, I'm a Reds fan. I would love to be able to see the day that the Reds would be able to officially retire the #14 and have it hung with the likes of Fred Hutchinson, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Sparky Anderson, Ted Kluszewski, Frank Robinson, Tony Perez, and most likely in the future, Barry Larkin.

But, you can't blame MLB for keeping Rose out of the HOF and here's why...
5. Shoeless Joe Jackson. Whether he actually did make plays to cause his team, the Chicago White Sox, to lose the 1919 World Series or not, he accepted money from gamblers to do so. For this reason, he has never been elected to the Hall of Fame. If he's not eligible for induction, the reasoning goes, Rose shouldn't be, either. In addition, because of the Black Sox Scandal, the rules against betting on baseball and consorting with gamblers are posted in every professional baseball clubhouse, where it is seen (if not read) every day by every person who comes in. The rule was clear, Rose knew it as well as anyone else, and broke it anyway. And, as a baseball historian, particularly aware of Ty Cobb and his contemporaries (and Cobb was a friend and admirer of Jackson), Rose knew full well the consequences of Jackson's actions. He bet on baseball anyway.

4. The Hall of Fame. It decides who shall be permitted in and not. The Hall's Board of Directors chose to make ineligible for induction any person on MLB's "permanently ineligible" list. If the Hall changed its mind and said that Rose, Shoeless Joe or anyone else on the list was now eligible for induction, there's nothing MLB or its Commissioner could do about it, short of lobbying the voters to vote against Rose and/or Jackson. It's out of MLB's hands. However, it is highly unlikely that the board will change its mind.

3. The death of Commissioner Bart Giamatti. Had he lived, Rose would have been able to petition him, rather than his successors, for reinstatement. But with Giamatti dying just a week after handing down the decision, MLB decided that one way to honor his memory was to make the Rose ban permanent. Giamatti's friend, deputy and successor as Commissioner, Fay Vincent, still says he would keep the ban if it was his choice. Vincent's successor, Bud Selig, also a friend of Giamatti's, has said he won't change his mind, either.

2. The Dowd Report. The quantity and quality of the evidence it provides is overwhelming, and proves beyond reasonable doubt that Rose not only bet on baseball, but bet on his own team.

1. Rose lied about his actions for 15 years. Had he, from the beginning, admitted what he'd done, apologized, and asked MLB and baseball fans for forgiveness, it's likely he would have been given a lesser penalty, or perhaps reinstated after a few years. It has been said that America is a forgiving nation, but the forgiveness must be preceded by confession and repentance, and while Rose has now confessed, he gives the impression that he is sorry only that he was caught and punished, not for what he did to get there. As a result, the majority of the Hall-of-Famers themselves refuse to have anything to do with him joining them, Bob Feller expressing especially harsh opposition. Since many of them are members of the Veterans Committee, this makes it highly unlikely that Rose will ever be admitted even if the Hall allows players on the ineligible list to enter.

[His Own Bad Self]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I always shut the thresholds off and manually induct people.

edit: well not "shut off" but make impossible to reach

Right, but it could be set to "enable/disable" like the coaches and financials are. Not a huge time-saver, but still convenient.

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by bigjas

I never did get the position of people who say that Rose shouldn't be in the HOF, but Joe Jackson should. What Jackson, Weaver, Cicotte, and the others did was far worse than what Rose did. They conspired to throw a World Series.

Personally, I would like to see Rose get reinstated. I'm biased though, I'm a Reds fan. I would love to be able to see the day that the Reds would be able to officially retire the #14 and have it hung with the likes of Fred Hutchinson, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Sparky Anderson, Ted Kluszewski, Frank Robinson, Tony Perez, and most likely in the future, Barry Larkin.

But, you can't blame MLB for keeping Rose out of the HOF and here's why...
5. Shoeless Joe Jackson. Whether he actually did make plays to cause his team, the Chicago White Sox, to lose the 1919 World Series or not, he accepted money from gamblers to do so. For this reason, he has never been elected to the Hall of Fame. If he's not eligible for induction, the reasoning goes, Rose shouldn't be, either. In addition, because of the Black Sox Scandal, the rules against betting on baseball and consorting with gamblers are posted in every professional baseball clubhouse, where it is seen (if not read) every day by every person who comes in. The rule was clear, Rose knew it as well as anyone else, and broke it anyway. And, as a baseball historian, particularly aware of Ty Cobb and his contemporaries (and Cobb was a friend and admirer of Jackson), Rose knew full well the consequences of Jackson's actions. He bet on baseball anyway.

4. The Hall of Fame. It decides who shall be permitted in and not. The Hall's Board of Directors chose to make ineligible for induction any person on MLB's "permanently ineligible" list. If the Hall changed its mind and said that Rose, Shoeless Joe or anyone else on the list was now eligible for induction, there's nothing MLB or its Commissioner could do about it, short of lobbying the voters to vote against Rose and/or Jackson. It's out of MLB's hands. However, it is highly unlikely that the board will change its mind.

3. The death of Commissioner Bart Giamatti. Had he lived, Rose would have been able to petition him, rather than his successors, for reinstatement. But with Giamatti dying just a week after handing down the decision, MLB decided that one way to honor his memory was to make the Rose ban permanent. Giamatti's friend, deputy and successor as Commissioner, Fay Vincent, still says he would keep the ban if it was his choice. Vincent's successor, Bud Selig, also a friend of Giamatti's, has said he won't change his mind, either.

2. The Dowd Report. The quantity and quality of the evidence it provides is overwhelming, and proves beyond reasonable doubt that Rose not only bet on baseball, but bet on his own team.

1. Rose lied about his actions for 15 years. Had he, from the beginning, admitted what he'd done, apologized, and asked MLB and baseball fans for forgiveness, it's likely he would have been given a lesser penalty, or perhaps reinstated after a few years. It has been said that America is a forgiving nation, but the forgiveness must be preceded by confession and repentance, and while Rose has now confessed, he gives the impression that he is sorry only that he was caught and punished, not for what he did to get there. As a result, the majority of the Hall-of-Famers themselves refuse to have anything to do with him joining them, Bob Feller expressing especially harsh opposition. Since many of them are members of the Veterans Committee, this makes it highly unlikely that Rose will ever be admitted even if the Hall allows players on the ineligible list to enter.

I have to say something about Jackson. While Shoeless Joe was implicated in the scandal, and while he admitted taking money, look at his stats. He it over .300 for the series and made some fantastic plays at defense. Throwing a series does not lend itself to performing like that. I believe he considered it, and I believe he took money, but I don't believe he followed through. The other 7 guys however? Guilty as sin.

[bigjas]

Originally Posted by jm47048

I have to say something about Jackson. While Shoeless Joe was implicated in the scandal, and while he admitted taking money, look at his stats. He it over .300 for the series and made some fantastic plays at defense. Throwing a series does not lend itself to performing like that. I believe he considered it, and I believe he took money, but I don't believe he followed through. The other 7 guys however? Guilty as sin.

Wow, most people always say that Buck Weaver is also one that isn't guilty as sin since he hit .324 in the series.

Jackson may have hit .375, he may have had 6 RBIs, but most of his damage came when it didn't matter...

Game 1 - 0/4, 1 R (0-1, 2 LOB w/RISP) L 1-9
Game 2 - 3/4, 1 K, 1 2B (0-1, 1 K, 1 LOB w/RISP) L 2-4
Game 3 - 2/3, 1 R, 1 CS (0-1, 2 LOB w/RISP) W 3-0
Game 4 - 1/4, 1 K, 1 2B (0-1, 1 LOB w/RISP) L 0-2
Game 5 - 0/4 (0-2, 3 LOB w/RISP) L 0-5

Pretty bad when Jackson was very clutch with runners in scoring position during the season. All his RBIs came in Games 6,7, and 8, and half of those came in Game 8, after the Reds were already up 5-0, and then up 10-1.

He helped throw that World Series.

[disposableheros]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I always shut the thresholds off and manually induct people.

edit: well not "shut off" but make impossible to reach

"