VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1969 - Page 3

DamnYankees · 05-12-2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I remember him sucking ass in the first one agaisnt New York

He was actually pretty terrible in his first three WS. His best WS performances were at ages 36 and 37, when he was in serious decline.

rudel.dietrich · 05-13-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

perhaps explaning why you feel so could convince folks to see what you see?

I will later today

I will say most of the things DY mentioned have little or no impact or are so heavily team dependent that you cannot hold it for or against a player.

The career number differences are not that large in most things besides power hitting and there is one gigantic aspect that Dietrich was much much better than Silcox in.

I will explain things more in depth later

canadiancreed · 05-13-2006, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

I will later today

I will say most of the things DY mentioned have little or no impact or are so heavily team dependent that you cannot hold it for or against a player.

The career number differences are not that large in most things besides power hitting and there is one gigantic aspect that Dietrich was much much better than Silcox in.

I will explain things more in depth later

I look foreward t it.

I will ask now though, what is the gigantic thing that makes Detrich superior?

bigjas · 05-13-2006, 03:12 AM

Mark Silcox
Luther Ormiston
Rudel Dietrich
Al Arsenault
Maurice Misisca
Corky Stell
Lonny Arrendale
Bobby Johnson
Genarito Nunez
Ben Cook

marc · 05-13-2006, 04:12 AM

Nunez
Arsenault

metsgeek · 05-13-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I look forward t it.

I will ask now though, what is the gigantic thing that makes Detrich superior?

The only thing I can see that is significantly more was Dietrich's OBP, but I'd say that 160 more HR, 333 more RBI, 3 BOTY Awards to 0, 3 GG's to 1, plus leading the league in a category 16 times compared to 4 on Dietrich's part would completely outweigh that one stat.

Personally, I disliked Silcox most of his career. He seemed to be the epitome of Dodger luck (I'm saying this from the P.O.V. of a "non-Dodger fan".....nothing against Enk's ability to manage). He played above his ratings most of his career and just annoyed the hell out of me.

I can't deny that Silcox was the best player in the game during his peak, though. I felt that Dietrich was great, as you can see by my vote for him, but Silcox was better.

You had to expect some intangible backlash from his unexplained early retirement. I think he'll eventually get in, but a couple more years in his career would certainly have made it easier.

THE GUT · 05-13-2006, 08:20 AM

Ulrich
Stell
Stuart
Silcox
Ormiston
Arrendale
Nunez
Johnson
Dietrich
Arsenault

Elendil · 05-13-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Koufax played in Dodger stadium, one of the best pitcher parks in the NL at the time. That didn't help his numbers out at all?

I don't think it helped his strikeout numbers.

rudel.dietrich · 05-13-2006, 12:30 PM

As I said before, Dietrich was a better player. I also said by a hair, and when I say by a hair I mean just a few % points better.

Here is why

First you have two nearly identical players. One broke into the league in 1949, the other in 1950. They retired the same year.
They played in the NL together for about 60% of their careers. There is no DH so the AL and NL are roughly similar leagues offensivly.

Silcox moved into a hard stadium for hitters but did so in 1958 when he was 33 and declining.
Dietrich moved in County stadium in 1956 when he was 27. County does not depress offense near the same level as Dodger stadium but it does depress offense about 6-7%

Ok, so we have established that the conditions they played under are nearly identical. That makes this pretty easy to compare them.

Career length
Again they are nearly identical. Silcoxs 1949 season is really the difference. He played in 110 more games than Dietrich which is about 70% of a season.
Silcox had alot more AB but that is because he never met a pitch he did not like.

Contact hitting
Silcox has more pure hits but that is due to the 110 more games and more AB. He was swinging more often and thus created more hits and more outs.
Dietirch had a 7 point higher BA over his career and shows up on the leader board more often than Silcox.
Dietrich ranks 48th on the all time BA list and Silcox does not rank according to Cato.
7 points is not that high so this is pretty much a wash.

Power hitting
Pretty clear cut advantage for Silcox but not as high as I thought it was before I looked.
The difference in slugging is 39 points which while significant is not that large.
Dietrich was a better gap hitter producing more doubles and it shows on the leaders boards. Silcox had more speed thus more triples.
HRs is what Silcox did best. 160 is a massive margain and gives Silcox alot more created runs over Dietrich until the next catagory

Getting on base
Here we have what makes up the gap and then some.
Silcox got on base 33.6% of the time which is a tad bit below average for a full time OF.
Dietrich got on base 38.5% of the time which is just a notch below exceptional.
49 points of OBP is a Grand Canyon type gap between the two players.
This makes up in full for the advantage in the long ball.

Base Stealing
So by now we have Dietrich ahead by a decent margain. Here is a place Silcox makes some of it up.
SB are not worth alot but they do make up some of the runs created gap.
Dietrich was pretty slow as a player and thankfully never tried to do something he couldnt. 20SB vs 9CS is not even really worth mentioning.
Silcox was a good basestealer early in his carrer.
68% is about at the threshold of what you want.
This makes up a few runs but the gap is still there.

Offensive Wrap up
Basicaly it boils down to two things that a hitter does to produce runs. Getting on base, and power hitting.
The differences are 39 points in slugging and 49 points in OBP.
OBP is worth far more than slugging so even if it was 39-39 Dietrich would come out on top. The fact that is it 39-49 makes the gap even wider.
That is how it works, if you refuse to believe it then all I can do it reccomend you read up more on the issue or continue to believe what you want.

Defense
Neither is going to be accussed of being a great defensive CF. Silcox had a little better range, Dietrich had a much much better arm.
Silcox won three GG vs Dietrichs one. GGs in OOTP are pretty much broken so I am not going to really include them into the equation.
Silcox by virtue of his better range was the slightly better CF fielding wise and the runs saved makes up a little more of the gap.
So runs created+runs saved we have Dietirch coming out a tiny bit ahead.

If by this point you do not agree with the last statment then might as well stop reading.

Peak value
So a few people mentioned peak value.
I fail to see how Silcox is so far ahead using this measure.
He had 4 seasons above 20 WS. Dietrich had 8 including 7 in a row.
Silcox had one massive season which was 1956 which was better than any of Dietrichs seasons. His next best WS total (and 2nd best season) was 1957.
Dietrich has two seasons better than that and four that match it.
Silcox won three MVPs. He deserves the first two but I think anyone would admit he did not deserve the 1958 MVP.
Dietrich has more WS in one less season played. He has one more XR in one less season played.
His OPS+ was higher.
Quite simply he was a more effective player when we was out in the field than Silcox. Every tool we have to measure such things agrees.

Things that really don't matter
Silcox is the clear winner here.
His RBI total is much higher, almost 50% so. But RBIs are a near usless statistic. Silcox played on much better offenses, was a power hitter and batted in the middle of the order most of his career.
Dietrich played on some bad and middle of the road offenses, his game was getting on base and he batter all over the lineup.
Silcox scored more runs. Again, the Dodgers had some amazing offensive talent. Silcox also played in 110 more games.
MVPs, Silcox has three. He deserves two. His two were during monster years. Dietrich was a better player in almost every year besides those two.
OOTP likes HRs and RBIs which is not something Dietrich produced.
WS and pennats. This is so heavily team dependent I am not going to waste the keystrokes on it.
Put Silcox and Dietrich on identical teams and both teams would have amazingly similar winning % over the course of both careers.

So there you have it. In the end you have two amazing similar players. By my account Dietrich comes out by the smallest of margains.
Both deserve to be in the HOF. But voting in one without the other seriously calls in to question your ability to read and interpert statistics.
If you want to keep one out, that is fine with me. But you had better keep both out then. You are voting for the same player either way.

ifspuds · 05-13-2006, 01:24 PM

Because nothing helps a person's case like telling the people you're trying to convince that they're idiots.

canadiancreed · 05-13-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendil

I don't think it helped his strikeout numbers.

but it did help out other areas such as HR totals, ERA and the like. Sure he had a decent team, but they weren't the Big Red Machine, The orioles or what not. DOdger Park helps pitchers, that's just the way ti is. It's like Shibe or Tiger Stadium helping hitters, you'll see the numbers reflect this.

Elendil · 05-13-2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

but it did help out other areas such as HR totals, ERA and the like. Sure he had a decent team, but they weren't the Big Red Machine, The orioles or what not. DOdger Park helps pitchers, that's just the way ti is. It's like Shibe or Tiger Stadium helping hitters, you'll see the numbers reflect this.

Koufax's park-adjusted ERA+ is 131, 31st all-time:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml

Neither Arrendale nor Ormiston comes anywhere close to having a park-adjusted OPS+ of 150, which is what's necessary to be 31st all-time in that category IRL.

canadiancreed · 05-13-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendil

Koufax's park-adjusted ERA+ is 131, 31st all-time:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml

Neither Arrendale nor Ormiston comes anywhere close to having a park-adjusted OPS+ of 150, which is what's necessary to be 31st all-time in that category IRL.

Well I dont knwo about the stats and what not, but from first hand experieince, I knwo that those two players, their respective teams would be hurt.

Without Arrendale, Philly only gets the 1948 pennant, maybe. Chicago in 1950 would not have won the pennant.

Without Oristom, Detroit is not as dominant as they were. While I donm't remember the AL pennant races as well as I should, I do know that their run of pennants and success from 1948-1955 would not have been close to what it was. He was no Kress (but who is really?), but he was a vital cog in that massive machine and was so for quite a while.

So thats' why they shoudl be considered. They were vital componets for successful teams that at the time, were considered one of the best players in their position.

DamnYankees · 05-13-2006, 06:07 PM

Ormiston was also an absolute monster in the World Series, maybe the best WS performer ever.

Matt from TN · 05-13-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Ormiston was also an absolute monster in the World Series, maybe the best WS performer ever.

His WS OPS is the highest in TWB history... at least in catobase so 1923-present. It is 1.152 in 101 PA.

http://catobase.southernbaseball.com...carpsbops.html

Hmmm, and none other than Tricky McNicky is 2nd.

pat · 05-13-2006, 08:33 PM

Arsenault
Nunez
Ayers
Stuart
Dietrich
Silcox
Ulrich

canadiancreed · 05-13-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Ormiston was also an absolute monster in the World Series, maybe the best WS performer ever.

I'd have to disagree, but I'm also biased as to my selection (Hank Makris)

In fact, all three of my guys had no success outside Cincy for my three fav WS performers. They being Makris, Barton, and Label

DamnYankees · 05-13-2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I'd have to disagree, but I'm also biased as to my selection (Hank Makris)

In fact, all three of my guys had no success outside Cincy for my three fav WS performers. They being Makris, Barton, and Label

I meant hitters. Makris is also a legend in the WS, and I didn't mean to compare the two.

Matt from TN · 05-13-2006, 10:54 PM

stuart
misisca
ormiston
cook
arrendale
johnson
silcox
dietrich

canadiancreed · 05-13-2006, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

I meant hitters. Makris is also a legend in the WS, and I didn't mean to compare the two.

ahh, that WOULD make sense

05-13-2006, 12:30 PM	#49
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	As I said before, Dietrich was a better player. I also said by a hair, and when I say by a hair I mean just a few % points better. Here is why First you have two nearly identical players. One broke into the league in 1949, the other in 1950. They retired the same year. They played in the NL together for about 60% of their careers. There is no DH so the AL and NL are roughly similar leagues offensivly. Silcox moved into a hard stadium for hitters but did so in 1958 when he was 33 and declining. Dietrich moved in County stadium in 1956 when he was 27. County does not depress offense near the same level as Dodger stadium but it does depress offense about 6-7% Ok, so we have established that the conditions they played under are nearly identical. That makes this pretty easy to compare them. Career length Again they are nearly identical. Silcoxs 1949 season is really the difference. He played in 110 more games than Dietrich which is about 70% of a season. Silcox had alot more AB but that is because he never met a pitch he did not like. Contact hitting Silcox has more pure hits but that is due to the 110 more games and more AB. He was swinging more often and thus created more hits and more outs. Dietirch had a 7 point higher BA over his career and shows up on the leader board more often than Silcox. Dietrich ranks 48th on the all time BA list and Silcox does not rank according to Cato. 7 points is not that high so this is pretty much a wash. Power hitting Pretty clear cut advantage for Silcox but not as high as I thought it was before I looked. The difference in slugging is 39 points which while significant is not that large. Dietrich was a better gap hitter producing more doubles and it shows on the leaders boards. Silcox had more speed thus more triples. HRs is what Silcox did best. 160 is a massive margain and gives Silcox alot more created runs over Dietrich until the next catagory Getting on base Here we have what makes up the gap and then some. Silcox got on base 33.6% of the time which is a tad bit below average for a full time OF. Dietrich got on base 38.5% of the time which is just a notch below exceptional. 49 points of OBP is a Grand Canyon type gap between the two players. This makes up in full for the advantage in the long ball. Base Stealing So by now we have Dietrich ahead by a decent margain. Here is a place Silcox makes some of it up. SB are not worth alot but they do make up some of the runs created gap. Dietrich was pretty slow as a player and thankfully never tried to do something he couldnt. 20SB vs 9CS is not even really worth mentioning. Silcox was a good basestealer early in his carrer. 68% is about at the threshold of what you want. This makes up a few runs but the gap is still there. Offensive Wrap up Basicaly it boils down to two things that a hitter does to produce runs. Getting on base, and power hitting. The differences are 39 points in slugging and 49 points in OBP. OBP is worth far more than slugging so even if it was 39-39 Dietrich would come out on top. The fact that is it 39-49 makes the gap even wider. That is how it works, if you refuse to believe it then all I can do it reccomend you read up more on the issue or continue to believe what you want. Defense Neither is going to be accussed of being a great defensive CF. Silcox had a little better range, Dietrich had a much much better arm. Silcox won three GG vs Dietrichs one. GGs in OOTP are pretty much broken so I am not going to really include them into the equation. Silcox by virtue of his better range was the slightly better CF fielding wise and the runs saved makes up a little more of the gap. So runs created+runs saved we have Dietirch coming out a tiny bit ahead. If by this point you do not agree with the last statment then might as well stop reading. Peak value So a few people mentioned peak value. I fail to see how Silcox is so far ahead using this measure. He had 4 seasons above 20 WS. Dietrich had 8 including 7 in a row. Silcox had one massive season which was 1956 which was better than any of Dietrichs seasons. His next best WS total (and 2nd best season) was 1957. Dietrich has two seasons better than that and four that match it. Silcox won three MVPs. He deserves the first two but I think anyone would admit he did not deserve the 1958 MVP. Dietrich has more WS in one less season played. He has one more XR in one less season played. His OPS+ was higher. Quite simply he was a more effective player when we was out in the field than Silcox. Every tool we have to measure such things agrees. Things that really don't matter Silcox is the clear winner here. His RBI total is much higher, almost 50% so. But RBIs are a near usless statistic. Silcox played on much better offenses, was a power hitter and batted in the middle of the order most of his career. Dietrich played on some bad and middle of the road offenses, his game was getting on base and he batter all over the lineup. Silcox scored more runs. Again, the Dodgers had some amazing offensive talent. Silcox also played in 110 more games. MVPs, Silcox has three. He deserves two. His two were during monster years. Dietrich was a better player in almost every year besides those two. OOTP likes HRs and RBIs which is not something Dietrich produced. WS and pennats. This is so heavily team dependent I am not going to waste the keystrokes on it. Put Silcox and Dietrich on identical teams and both teams would have amazingly similar winning % over the course of both careers. So there you have it. In the end you have two amazing similar players. By my account Dietrich comes out by the smallest of margains. Both deserve to be in the HOF. But voting in one without the other seriously calls in to question your ability to read and interpert statistics. If you want to keep one out, that is fine with me. But you had better keep both out then. You are voting for the same player either way. Last edited by rudel.dietrich; 05-13-2006 at 12:41 PM.

05-13-2006, 01:24 PM	#50
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	Because nothing helps a person's case like telling the people you're trying to convince that they're idiots. __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

05-13-2006, 08:33 PM	#56
pat Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 2,748	Arsenault Nunez Ayers Stuart Dietrich Silcox Ulrich __________________ Co-Founder & Technical Director at ExaWeb Corporation, an SEO company in the Philippines. Previous Leagues - Time Warp Baseball / International Federation of Baseball / Professional Baseball Replay League / No Pepper Baseball League / MLB Pro Current OOTP 24 Leagues - Sim Sports Gaming - (2016-Present) Washington Nationals (2016-2022) *2017 Champions Oakland Athletics (2023-Present)

05-13-2006, 10:54 PM	#59
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	stuart misisca ormiston cook arrendale johnson silcox dietrich __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

05-13-2006, 03:12 AM	#44
bigjas Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olive Hill, KY Posts: 279	Mark Silcox Luther Ormiston Rudel Dietrich Al Arsenault Maurice Misisca Corky Stell Lonny Arrendale Bobby Johnson Genarito Nunez Ben Cook

05-13-2006, 04:12 AM	#45
marc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,505	Nunez Arsenault

05-13-2006, 08:20 AM	#47
THE GUT Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 120	Ulrich Stell Stuart Silcox Ormiston Arrendale Nunez Johnson Dietrich Arsenault

05-13-2006, 06:07 PM	#54
DamnYankees All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,644	Ormiston was also an absolute monster in the World Series, maybe the best WS performer ever.