Left Handed 2B,SS,3B

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I would submit that it has been done and is currently done every day just not on the ML level but in colleges and high schools. ML scouts go to these games, use stopwatches and time everything. Pitcher to home, catcher from catch to second, and infielders from glove to the base they are throwing to. And they have yet to find a prospect that they think can do it. That should tell us something.

Yes, it shows THAT IT JUST DOESN'T WORK.

[jaxmagicman]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

This is not about being convinced. It's about people who don't know the game and obviously haven't played it posting nonsense.

Ask anyone who has actually played the game and see what answer you get.

Do anyone really think that every single college, minor league, and major league coach and manager are idiots? They want to get left-handed bats in their lineups. If left-handed fielders actually could work at 2B/SS/3B, there'd be a bunch of them playing the positions.

Every time I think I am done you say something not so smart and drag me back in. The argument in here is that OOTP shouldn't have left handed throwing infielders because it doesn't happen and you agree and in the same post provide a link that shows that yes players have played infield in the Majors and yes some of them were sucessful.

Seems like it should be part of the game, since you know it is part of the game:

CAREER
2B
LEFT HANDED THROWERS
ASSISTS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

GAMES G A
1 Bill Greenwood 538 1570
2 Bill McClellan 436 1312
3 Harry Kingman 381 1023
4 Tommy Byrne 373 1107
5 Tom Evers 110 296
6 Roger Connor 68 207
7 John Shoupe 67 205
8 Sam Trott 65 154
9 George Decker 40 99
10 Dave LaPoint 36 110
11 Hal Chase 35 76
12 Lip Pike 29 73
13 Jimmy Hallinan 25 54
14 Harry Burrell 24 29
15 Wilbur Good 23 81
16 Elmer Foster 21 75
17 Willie Keeler 19 31
18 Gus Krock 15 25
19 Bill Harbidge 13 31
20 Jake Boyd 10 14
T21 Jack Leary 8 17
T21 Jimmy Ryan 8 13
T23 Cozy Dolan 7 17
T23 Denny Driscoll 7 11
25 Fred Carl 6 25
T26 George Van Haltren 5 9
T26 Monk Cline 5 4
T26 Jimmy Macullar 5 9
T29 John Hiland 3 4
T29 Hick Carpenter 3 6
T29 Jake Virtue 3 4
T29 Charlie Hemphill 3 7
T29 Joe Agler 3 10
T29 Kid Mohler 3 10
T35 George Sisler 2 5
T35 John Cassidy 2 2
T35 Sy Sutcliffe 2 4
T35 Gonzalo Marquez 2 0
T35 Billy Hulen 2 2
T35 Pat Hannifin 2 1
T41 Oscar Walker 1 0
T41 Cy Seymour 1 1
T41 Cannonball Titcomb 1 0
T41 Jim Bottomley 1 1
T41 Lefty Stewart 1 0
T41 Jake Beckley 1 0
T41 Jesse Burkett 1 3
T41 Edd Roush 1 0
T41 Charlie Householder 1 1
T41 Lefty Davis 1 0
T41 Pep Deininger 1 0
T41 Sam McDowell 1 0
T41 Don Mattingly 1 0
T41 Jack Dunleavy 1 3
T41 Phil Knell 1 0
T41 Buck Freeman 1 0
T41 Art Jacobs 1 1
T41 Snake Wiltse 1 3
T41 George Crowe 1 0

CAREER
SS
LEFT HANDED THROWERS
ASSISTS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

GAMES G A
1 Jimmy Macullar 325 949
2 Bill McClellan 246 741
3 Dave LaPoint 108 301
4 Billy Hulen 92 272
5 George Van Haltren 79 222
6 Jimmy Ryan 58 173
7 Jimmy Hallinan 50 172
8 Billy Redmond 42 111
9 Jack Leary 40 106
10 Russ Hall 36 104
11 Gus Krock 35 76
12 Sy Sutcliffe 31 100
13 Bill Greenwood 30 59
14 Lefty Marr 29 101
15 Wilbur Good 18 51
16 John Shoupe 17 51
T17 Monk Cline 14 25
T17 Bill Harbidge 14 44
19 Jake Boyd 8 14
T20 Sam Trott 5 11
T20 Jake Virtue 5 14
T22 George Decker 4 7
T22 John Corcoran 4 12
T22 Bill Gallagher 4 5
T22 Jack Clements 4 10
T26 Mike Donlin 3 4
T26 Hal Chase 3 1
T28 John Cassidy 2 5
T28 Harry Burrell 2 3
T28 Dick Burns 2 0
T28 Ed Beatin 2 1
T28 Lip Pike 2 8
T28 Willie Keeler 2 5
T28 Matt Kilroy 2 4
T28 Bobby Mitchell 2 6
T36 Fergy Malone 1 2
T36 Dave Oldfield 1 0
T36 Jesse Burkett 1 1
T36 Gene Moriarity 1 1
T36 Spud Johnson 1 0
T36 Doc Miller 1 0
T36 Lou Gehrig 1 0
T36 Kid Madden 1 3
T36 Joe Yingling 1 2
T36 Lefty Davis 1 0
T36 Phil Baker 1 0
T36 Hick Carpenter 1 1

CAREER
3B
LEFT HANDED THROWERS
ASSISTS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

GAMES G A
1 Hick Carpenter 1059 1991
2 John Shoupe 161 272
3 Lefty Marr 129 276
4 Roger Connor 111 215
5 Chuck Cary 83 185
6 Bill McClellan 58 86
T7 Willie Keeler 44 69
T7 Spud Johnson 44 75
9 Jack Leary 37 60
10 Dave LaPoint 33 34
11 John Cassidy 17 26
12 Mike Squires 14 9
13 George Decker 10 15
T14 Jimmy Ryan 6 7
T14 Milo Netzel 6 9
T14 Bill Harbidge 6 10
T14 Art Jacobs 6 8
T14 Buck Freeman 6 7
T19 Gene Moriarity 5 11
T19 Jake Virtue 5 13
T19 John Newell 5 10
T22 Wilbur Good 4 1
T22 Jack Clements 4 2
T24 George Van Haltren 3 8
T24 Russ Hall 3 11
T24 Harry Burrell 3 6
T24 Monk Cline 3 6
T24 Don Mattingly 3 11
T24 Sy Sutcliffe 3 0
T24 Billy Redmond 3 8
T31 Dan Brouthers 2 5
T31 George Sisler 2 4
T31 Cy Seymour 2 5
T31 John Corcoran 2 1
T31 Charlie Eden 2 3
T31 Cannonball Titcomb 2 4
T37 Cyclone Miller 1 1
T37 Sam Trott 1 1
T37 Jesse Burkett 1 2
T37 Joe Wright 1 0
T37 Fred Carl 1 0
T37 Joe Kuhel 1 2
T37 Matt Kilroy 1 1
T37 Mario Valdez 1 0
T37 Hal Chase 1 4
T37 Elmer Foster 1 0
T37 Sam Thompson 1 0
T37 Charlie Grimm 1 1
T37 Jake Boyd 1 0
T37 Denny Driscoll 1 0
T37 Terry Francona 1 3
T37 Jimmy Macullar 1 0




Done for real this time.

[DrArbiter]

This won't take long.

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Seems like it should be part of the game, since you know it is part of the game:

CAREER
2B
LEFT HANDED THROWERS
ASSISTS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

GAMES G A
1 Bill Greenwood 538 1570

Played before gloves; properly considered ambidextrous.

2 Bill McClellan 436 1312

Played before gloves; properly considered ambidextrous.

3 Harry Kingman 381 1023

Uhh, Harry Kingman played one game at first base in his short career, and that's all. (He did have a significant role as a missionary and spreader of baseball in mainland China later in life, though!)

4 Tommy Byrne 373 1107

Tommy Byrne pitched in 281 games. Never appeared at any position in the field.

5 Tom Evers 110 296

Not only before gloves, but played in a league that most don't even consider major anymore.

And it goes on. I mean, did anyone *look* at this list? Dave LaPoint playing significant games at second base and shortstop? I think someone screwed up.

I looked at the thread Mal linked -- it's chock full of bogus information (such as the assertion that it was "common" for Gehrig to be penciled in McGwire-style to keep his streak going when he had ALS. Bull. It happened once, earlier in his career, because he had the flu.)

But notice that all the players who played any significant number of games played before gloves, and the biographical identification of such players as right or left handed is suspect at best. (Spend some time with the SABR biographical committee on stuff like that -- bio info, especially on 19th century players, is often quite sketchy.)

[mbd]

Guys! It actually seems like there's agreement in this thread but you still keep arguing.

Here's what we know:

1) There have been no left-handed 2B, SS or 3B in the majors since 1910.
2) There were perhaps some in the 19th century.
3) There are some in high school and some levels of college.

It seems silly to say that OOTP should make such players NEVER exist. For example, if I want to convert a lefty 1B to a lefty 3B, the game should let me.

The issue is whether the SIMULATION is at all realistic. As long as you can draft lefty shortstops in 2006 (or 1926 or 2026) and they are good fielders, that is a bug and needs to be fixed. But the occasional lefty in high school or the 19th century is OK, as long as we are forced to move them to OF or 1B in modern times if we want any decent fielding out of them.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mbd

Guys! It actually seems like there's agreement in this thread but you still keep arguing.

There's no agreement. There are some inexperienced people claiming that something can happen in basebal that can't happen in baseball, and then there are those of us who know what we are talking about (and who have tried it ourselves) who are telling them that no, it can't happen.

Originally Posted by mbd

It seems silly to say that OOTP should make such players NEVER exist.

There haven't been any since before World War I, and you think they should be allowed in the game? Bull. The measure of a simulation is how good a mirror it holds up to reality. For OOTP to allow left-handed-fielding 2B/SS/3B cracks that mirror.

Originally Posted by mbd

For example, if I want to convert a lefty 1B to a lefty 3B, the game should let me.

No! It should never let you, as it can't be done in real life.

Originally Posted by mbd

The issue is whether the SIMULATION is at all realistic.

Well, you got that right. And with left-handed-fielding 2B/SS/3B in it, it isn't.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by DrArbiter

I looked at the thread Mal linked -- it's chock full of bogus information

I only linked to it - as noted - for the lists, which I believe are not *too* bogus.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I only linked to it - as noted - for the lists, which I believe are not bogus.

Mal, this isn't like you You really think Dave LaPoint played a lot of 2b and ss in his career?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by DrArbiter

Mal, this isn't like you You really think Dave LaPoint played a lot of 2b and ss in his career?

No, but Ralph LaPointe did. I think the Dave LaPoint entries are in error.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

No, but Ralph LaPointe did. I think the Dave LaPoint entries are in error.

Obviously. And Ralph LaPointe was a righty thrower.

Anyway, someone really farked up with that list.

[rocknfire7]

JAX!

Give it up man! You either don't have a clue how baseball works or you are doing this on purpose!

This is from someone who has played every position, and KNOWS BASEBALL.

I hope this redundant thread is closed soon!

[rudel.dietrich]

I find it weird that many here who love historical leagues with historical accuracy are willing to code into the game something that they themselved admit happened.

I also do not really want Markus to waste any time on this since this is a insignificant issue when compared to the other dauning issues the series still needs to adress.

Which would you rather he worked on?
Spending half an hour coding into the game left handed middle infielders not exsisting.
Or using that half an hour to work out a more realistic aging later?


You would have to be half ******ed to pick the former.

I say leave it in. It benefits historical simmers who strive for every possible realistic inclusion.
It also benefits fictional simmers who really don't give much of a damn about real players and which arm they use.

Lastly, you can spend three seconds and edit any players you see as unfit.
This really was a useless thread that never should have been started.

[mbd]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

No! It should never let you, as it can't be done in real life.

It's not against the rules. So yes it can be done in real life.

I guess we just disagree as to how the software should work. But I can't see how your logic makes sense.

No manager in the last 90 years has put a lefty at 2nd, so the game shouldn't allow it? What if all the 2B's on your roster are injured?

It should ALLOW it. It's just that if you have a lefty 2B he should perform very badly. If a game covers up for a bad simulation by just disallowing certain things that's absurd.

What if I want to move Mike Piazza to shortstop. It's never happened and it never will. But if I WANT to do it, I should be allowed to. And he should be a horrible shortstop.

I bet no manager has ever lifted a left-handed pitcher in favor of a right-handed reliever to face Barry Bonds or David Ortiz. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't allow it.

Make the simulation right. Then let me shoot my foot off if I want.

[mbd]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Which would you rather he worked on?
Spending half an hour coding into the game left handed middle infielders not exsisting.
Or using that half an hour to work out a more realistic aging model?

You would have to be half ******ed to pick the former.

I guess I'm at least half ******ed then.

If the aging model isn't good in the seventh version, another half hour isn't going to help it. Since this is a total rewrite, we can optimistically hope that the model will be pretty good this time around. And in that case, another half hour isn't going to make much difference. Aging, across eras, positions, injury proneness, etc. -- is complicated. I'm sure Markus has spent many many hours on it already.

The lefty infielders however is another matter entirely. When Markus reads this thread he'll probably say "Oh! I forgot to prevent non-1B infielders from being lefties in modern play. I'll fix that right now."

[mrbill]

Originally Posted by mbd

It's not against the rules. So yes it can be done in real life.

I guess we just disagree as to how the software should work. But I can't see how your logic makes sense.

No manager in the last 90 years has put a lefty at 2nd, so the game shouldn't allow it? What if all the 2B's on your roster are injured?

It should ALLOW it. It's just that if you have a lefty 2B he should perform very badly. If a game covers up for a bad simulation by just disallowing certain things that's absurd.

What if I want to move Mike Piazza to shortstop. It's never happened and it never will. But if I WANT to do it, I should be allowed to. And he should be a horrible shortstop.

I bet no manager has ever lifted a left-handed pitcher in favor of a right-handed reliever to face Barry Bonds or David Ortiz. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't allow it.

Make the simulation right. Then let me shoot my foot off if I want.

This is where the whole post comes from. 2B/SS/3B should not be CREATED by the game throwing left-handed, only because its just too rare say it ever should happen. And even if it happens once in a while, its an obvious disadvantage, and then the point of "not wasting time coding" comes in...its not worth modeling how much worse they should field for throwing left handed.

The simple argument is that the game should create all right-handed throwers, and if you want something different, the "Editor" button is *right* there. Then you can edit in whatever performance hit you think is appropriate for those 2B who throw left handed.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mbd

It's not against the rules. So yes it can be done in real life.

Against the rules? No, it's just impossible. Since no one can convert a left-handed-fielding 1B to a 3B in baseball, it should be forbidden in OOTP as well.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mrbill

This is where the whole post comes from. 2B/SS/3B should not be CREATED by the game throwing left-handed, only because its just too rare say it ever should happen. And even if it happens once in a while, its an obvious disadvantage, and then the point of "not wasting time coding" comes in...its not worth modeling how much worse they should field for throwing left handed.

The simple argument is that the game should create all right-handed throwers, and if you want something different, the "Editor" button is *right* there. Then you can edit in whatever performance hit you think is appropriate for those 2B who throw left handed.

And there you have it.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by WrightWing

And if you use the 4.2/4.3 home-to-first time posted earlier, that means about 4-7 feet closer to first for the batter-runner. Too many bang-bang plays that would be outs now become infield hits...

No disagreement from me. I am one of the ones against using lefties at those positions. i am practically fanatical about having the best defense in MIF.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by mbd

When Markus reads this thread he'll probably say "Oh! I forgot to prevent non-1B infielders from being lefties in modern play. I'll fix that right now."

Let's hope so. He's forgotten to do that for years, to the detriment of the game's realism.

[Deft]

The lefty infielder is not a good option at the highest levels because of simple bio-mechanics makes it a severe disadvantage.

But I will point out that lefty catchers would much better at throwing to 1B particularly on the left side of the infield.

I do think however, that lefty infielders should be an option for lower talent leagues.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by mrbill

This is where the whole post comes from. 2B/SS/3B should not be CREATED by the game throwing left-handed, only because its just too rare say it ever should happen. And even if it happens once in a while, its an obvious disadvantage, and then the point of "not wasting time coding" comes in...its not worth modeling how much worse they should field for throwing left handed.

The simple argument is that the game should create all right-handed throwers, and if you want something different, the "Editor" button is *right* there. Then you can edit in whatever performance hit you think is appropriate for those 2B who throw left handed.

Best way to sum this thread up.