Historical managers

[kagnew35]

Might be opening a can of worms, but how bout possibility of game having a roster of historical managers, ie, casey stengel, whitey herzog, and so on, with their managerial traits set to historical tendencies? Maybe add historical scouts later.Even make player managers possible, ie, lou boudreau, jimmy collins.

[statfreak]

I'd like to add my opinion and say that I hope that never, ever happens.

I never want to see OOTP include real players / managers... past, present, or future.

Of course, as long as it is optional and can be turned off, I have no problem with this or anything else being included in the game.

Unrelated to this thread, I wish people would stop trying to make this game be like Mogul, Diamond Mind, and other crappy baseball games that I would never play (again)!

[kagnew35]

preciate your input, statfreak, but my own preferences are for only historical leagues. Main strength of OOTP is it does allow both of us to have all we want.

[Dark Horse]

Again, like players and teams, i think you need permission to use real managers in the game.

Even if that weren't a problem, people will complain about how one manager or the other is rated.

As long as OOTP allows us to create/edit managers/coaches/scouts i'll be happy.

And, if we can create/edit them, this will be another one of those things that mods will do once the new version of OOTP is out.

[Twelvefield]

If you hire the virtual Tony LaRussa, will your OOTPB league generate a record number of virtual bean-balls?

[kagnew35]

and billy martin fights

[Gorilla Shakespeare]

And Dick Williams... ah, never mind.

[The Professor]

And Gene Mauch sac bunts...

Reminds me of an old, old thread (maybe on this forum, maybe on one that predates it) about Mauch.

[mgsports]

I will vote for both! Real Staff and Personal would be nice! Interviewing for a GM or Manager or so on postion would be great like your 3B Coach becoming the Manager of lets say the Yankees! Black Monday and Interm Postions need to be include!

[Nukester]

I found that I still had this link that was created awhile ago by someone for an older version of OOTP. I was looking for a link to this, never realizing I still had it in my favorites

This is the managerial tendencies of many managers from 1980-2001. I thought it might come in handy here.

http://www.geocities.com/jaxgreg/OOTPManagers.htm

[DaddyO]

One thing to consider when making this suggestion:

A manager has to tailor his tendencies to the roster he is given. Sparky Anderson would probably manage the speedy Cardinals of the 1980s differently than he did the Big Red Machine of the 1970s. Likewise Whitey Herzog if he had the Reds instead of St. Louis.

Just a thought...

[DaddyO]

Perfect example from the database linked in a post above...

1980 Whitey Herzog Steals "Not Often"
1985 Whitey Herzog Steal "Very Often"

Which Whitey Herzog do you create? And average of the two? That leaves you with "Average," which is a Whitey Herzog that perhaps never existed.

It all depends upon the talent he has. It can swing wildly from season to season and team to team.

[Boozie1580]

Originally Posted by kagnew35

preciate your input, statfreak, but my own preferences are for only historical leagues.

True, and historical players aren't included in the game either, only the ability to import them from an outside source.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

A manager has to tailor his tendencies to the roster he is given. Sparky Anderson would probably manage the speedy Cardinals of the 1980s differently than he did the Big Red Machine of the 1970s. Likewise Whitey Herzog if he had the Reds instead of St. Louis.

Another manager once said that the only thing that Billy Martin team's had in common was that he made them into winners, and that no two of them were even similar in nature.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Perfect example from the database linked in a post above...

1980 Whitey Herzog Steals "Not Often"
1985 Whitey Herzog Steal "Very Often"

Which Whitey Herzog do you create? And average of the two? That leaves you with "Average," which is a Whitey Herzog that perhaps never existed.

It all depends upon the talent he has. It can swing wildly from season to season and team to team.

True but you could get an average of what Herzog might do which is probably all you can do. Some managers were probably the opposite of Herzog and tried to make the team fit their style of play regardless of the talent. It might be ok but if the AI started to have Cecil Fielder trying to steal 3 bases a game because the historical manager preferred running a lot,
i wouldnt like it. If you did rate managers i guess you would also have to look at seasons were 2 or more managers managed and either go with the manager that manged the most games or ignore that season.

Right now i just use the historical names and maybe change the name a little for player manger. I am not really sure how much winning and losing should be contributed to a manager. Sometimes a manager can win anywhere and sometimes he is only as good as the talent around him.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by kagnew35

Might be opening a can of worms, but how bout possibility of game having a roster of historical managers, ie, casey stengel, whitey herzog, and so on, with their managerial traits set to historical tendencies? Maybe add historical scouts later.Even make player managers possible, ie, lou boudreau, jimmy collins.

Off topic but gotta say - Nice avater kagnew35.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Perfect example from the database linked in a post above...

1980 Whitey Herzog Steals "Not Often"
1985 Whitey Herzog Steal "Very Often"

Which Whitey Herzog do you create? And average of the two? That leaves you with "Average," which is a Whitey Herzog that perhaps never existed.

The guy that did the database based this strictly off two numbers.

Stealing - The total # of Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing (Number of Stolen Base attempts). I figured with this total, we would see how often a manager likes to steal.

IMHO he erred in thinking this total would tell you how often that a manager likes to steal. It doesn't even tell you how often he actually called for a stolen base. Because some of those stolen bases and caught stealings could have been the result of bad hit and runs or run and hits or squeeze bunts.

Originally Posted by DaddyO

It all depends upon the talent he has. It can swing wildly from season to season and team to team.

You hit the nail on the head. In 1979, his last Kansas City Royal team led the AL in stolen bases. And by 1982, his St. Louis team led the NL in stolen bases. The difference in 1980 was that he didn't have the players to steal a lot of bases. And he didn't manage that team the whole season. (He only managed the last 73 games of that season.)

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Some managers were probably the opposite of Herzog and tried to make the team fit their style of play regardless of the talent. It might be ok but if the AI started to have Cecil Fielder trying to steal 3 bases a game because the historical manager preferred running a lot, i wouldnt like it.

No worries about that. In OOTP, slow runners won't attempt to steal a lot of bases even if their manager is Whitey Herzog.

Also, you bring up a good point. A historical manager from the pre Babe Ruth days would not want Cecil Fielder on his team because he didn't run. If you were modding this or creating managers for yourself. i would suggest modifying both the manager and GM of the team so that they could be on the same page.

You can't have a GM that favors power over speed, if the team is going to steal a lot of bases. Otherwise, you'll have situations where you a Herzog trying to manage a team full of Cecil Fielders, Greg Nettles, Dave Hendersons and Carlos Baergas.

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Right now i just use the historical names and maybe change the name a little for player manger. I am not really sure how much winning and losing should be contributed to a manager. Sometimes a manager can win anywhere and sometimes he is only as good as the talent around him.

i don't think there are as many good managers vs. bad managers as are portrayed in the media. Hopefully, in OOTP that is the case, too. You need talent to go with the manager. But it should add some flavor to the league. Instead of having 20 or 30 teams with the same philosophy/strategy.

[Riverdawg]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

The guy that did the database based this strictly off two numbers.

IMHO he erred in thinking this total would tell you how often that a manager likes to steal. It doesn't even tell you how often he actually called for a stolen base. Because some of those stolen bases and caught stealings could have been the result of bad hit and runs or run and hits or squeeze bunts.

Ok, how would you have done it? There is no way to statistical track the # steal attempts the manager calls during the season. Thus, the easiest and better stat to indicate is by the # of SB's and Caught Stealing and compare it with the rest of the League that the manager is in. That's how I did it (BTW, I am the author of that file!)

A lot of these tendencies that OOTP is looking for is really just guess work. I tried my best to figure out if you could tie the tendencies into stats. The result of that is the link above.

For 2006, I am trying to do the same thing. This time, I am grouping the managers and GM together and saying "Ok, the manager manages the players he gets while usually, in most cases, the GM is getting the players that the manager wants to manage. Thus, the GM and Manager are USUALLY on the same page and should have the same tendencies." Thus, I am creating a scale of 1-10, the tenendicies for Stealing, sacrificing, use of relievers and how quickly SP are pulled, and IBB for all managers and GM's in past historical play.

Right now, I am going back to 1960, so we should have 40+ years of records of the managers and GM's for each team with their tendencies. You'll be able to see what they did for each year or what their overall average tendency while they were a manager or GM.

The hardest part of this project is finding out the stats when GM's and Managers are fired mid-season. I think the best way to handle this is to take the GM or manager who managed the majority of the season and assign the stats to them for that season.

Anyone else with any better suggestions, let me know before I start getting too deep into the project and can't change the format or gathering of data.

[Dark Horse]

First off, props to you for the work you put into gathering the data for that website. And, i hope you did not take my opinions as an offense. i was merely responding the apparent Whitey Herzog - Jeckyl & Hyde thing that seemed to be going on.

Getting the tendencies from stats are hard because stats just can't tell the whole story. And they don't keep stats for everythig. Really, the only tendencies that can we can even begin to determine through stats are Stealing Bases, Sacrife Bunts, Intentional Walks, Starters Hook and Relievers Hook. And, if you can find splits for all of the pitchers, you can get an idea of how often they Favored L/R Matchups.

i would start off looking at stats, but i would also research the managers. You'll need the anecdotal evidence for the other tendencies.

And when using stats, i would look at the manager's career as a whole, rather than adjusting from season to season. Like i said, in OOTP, even if the 27 Yanks were switched to stealing Very Often, Ruth and Gehrig still wouldn't attempt a lot of steals.

And, unless the manager led the team for at least 75% or 80% of its games for a given, i wouldn't attribute stats from a team that had more than one manager.

i would put the stats into ratios, like:

For stolen bases i would say ((SB+CS)/(SINGLES + BB))
Bunts - (SH/(SINGLES + BB))
Intentional Walks - (IW/BATTERS FACED)
Starters Hook - (BATTERS FACED/GS) *i would try to use only starters that did not make any relief appearances.
Relievers Hook (BATTERS FACED/GAMES) *i would try to use only relievers that did not make any starts.

Once i gathered the stats, i would rank the managers for each category. And determine the OOTP tendencies from there.

[joeswell]

Originally Posted by The Professor

And Gene Mauch sac bunts...

Reminds me of an old, old thread (maybe on this forum, maybe on one that predates it) about Mauch.

Does anyone remember when Gene Mauch tackled a catcher who while setting up to catch a foul pop up, put his foot too close to the Phillies' dugout?

I was at that game - July 1966 vs Mets - the catcher was Jerry Grote - Mauch was ejected, but I don't remember whether it was an out or not because Grote didn't catch the ball.