Liston vs. Machen. Two very good heavyweights.

steamboat brand, palooka · 03-01-2006, 05:33 PM

Last week, I watched the ESPN classics, and it showed Sonny Liston vs. Eddie Machen, at Sicks Stadium in Seattle, 1960. Gee, the Sixties at Sicks Stadium...Liston-Machen+the Seattle Pilots!
The things I got out of this fight was how good a boxer Sonny Liston was. He was fairly orthodox, and his jab struck out like a battering ram. I am amazed ANYONE went the distance with this guy. If the 1960 Sonny Liston fought the 1964 Muhammad Ali, it may have been one of the greatest fights ever.
I loved Eddie Machen in this fight, though he didn't stand a chance with Liston. Machen didn't throw nearly enough, but I'm sure he was hurting too much inside. He was quick, sturdy, and had fast hands, when he was up to trading with Liston. Perhaps he was waiting for Liston to slow down, which he never did. Machen's style and ability reminded me very much of Jimmy Young.
My Dad, who died a month after Benny Paret, when I was 9(you can imagine how I felt with that New York Daily news photo of Paret in the hospital bed, on the bulletin board at school; my Dad was also in a coma, at the same time.), was a big fight fan, watching the Friday night fights every week, and my brother told me Eddie Machen was my dad's favorite fighter. He picked a good one. I was pleasantly surprised by the great ability of these two heavyweights; I had figured that ALL sports improved in ability, since the fifties, but Liston + Machen are "State of the Art"; Machen is as good as any Heavyweight around now, or in the last few years, and Liston is better.

wildhawke11 · 03-01-2006, 08:29 PM

I have to say first of all i am sorry that the film bought painful memories back to you my boxing friend. I have a good idea how memories can be painful. Over here in UK the old football fans look back with a sort of pride in the only time England ever won the world cup way back in 1966. For me it has painful memories because the day before the final my 16 year old brother lost his life in a motor bike accident.

As to Liston you hit the nail on the head, he was in his prime more then a little useful as a boxer. In my personal opinion he had one of the hardest and best jabs in the business. His jab was very near equal to any other fighters best punch. Problem of course all that Sonny is remembered for now by the majority is that fight with a young Ali. If Ali had met Liston at his prime and not pretty much past his sell by date, who knows if Clay could have coped with him. In spite of Liston quitting in there first fight people might be surprised to find the scoring if i recall it correct was pretty close at the time. So makes you wonder how a 25% better Liston might have done against the wonder boy Clay. Big George Foreman once sparred a little with an Old Liston and afterwards commented on how hard the old boy could still hit. In fact later on George used to tell people that Liston was the only man who ever made him back up in a ring.

As Sonny got older he was more interested with the women then getting himself in shape for fights and of course this proved to be his undoing in his fight with that rising young star Clay. I would say it would be a 50 - 50 fight with if i was pushed with my bet going for Liston if Liston had been at prime and in shape in there first fight.

I have a video somewhere in the house where a young unbeaten Mike Tyson who at the time was considered by a great many experts would go on to become the greatest HW ever. In the video he is sitting with i forget the commentators name at the moment, but there both watching all the old former champions in action. Anyway in the finish Tyson was asked which out of them would he least have wanted to meet in the ring. Without hesitation he said Sonny Liston. Because he went on to add, how i was going to get past that great powerful jab of his would be a major problem for me. Then he smiled and went on, even if i managed to get inside that jab i now how to come face to face with the rest of the heavy weapons in Listons armoury. To be honest i guess most of Tysons thoughts of course were influenced by the late Cus D'AMato though. But it does give you an idea how Gus himself rated Liston when in shape of course.

In Listons favour as a man when he was earning the money i believe he was one of the few who shown that old great fighter Joe Louis any compassion when Louis pretty much hit skid row. So maybe Sonny as a person was not such a bad guy after all after he mellowed a little. But of course the media loves to play the good guy v the big bad bully and thats how Sonny Liston sad to say will always be remembered.

erickdamac · 03-02-2006, 08:30 AM

Judges scoring and how the fight really was going is two diffrent things!

Buddy Whatshisname · 03-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erickdamac

Judges scoring and how the fight really was going is two diffrent things!

Yeah. The judges' scoring is what counts! Surreal isn't it?

Buddy

Jim_Kidd · 03-02-2006, 11:02 AM

If you enjoy reading about Sonny Liston, you'll love the book entitled: The Devil & Sonny Liston. Here's a link to the book at Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...sonny%20liston

It's a great read.

No doubt that the Sonny Liston who fought Cassius Clay in the first fight was a past-prime version. But regardless, I think Ali/Clay had the style to beat him. Plus, he also had the psychological edge over him - as he never showed any fear as most of Liston's other opponents did.

Back to the book, though... I think it's the best Sonny Liston "documentary" out there.

erickdamac · 03-02-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy Whatshisname

Yeah. The judges' scoring is what counts! Surreal isn't it?

Buddy

Buddy your right thats the only one that counts, so most times I dont bitch about scoring.
But If Fighter B is is clearly gettin beatin and the fight is close on the cards,
but everyone see the beatin he has taken, it dont show the actual beatin fighter B was taking.

03-01-2006, 05:33 PM	#1
steamboat brand, palooka Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 156	Liston vs. Machen. Two very good heavyweights. Last week, I watched the ESPN classics, and it showed Sonny Liston vs. Eddie Machen, at Sicks Stadium in Seattle, 1960. Gee, the Sixties at Sicks Stadium...Liston-Machen+the Seattle Pilots! The things I got out of this fight was how good a boxer Sonny Liston was. He was fairly orthodox, and his jab struck out like a battering ram. I am amazed ANYONE went the distance with this guy. If the 1960 Sonny Liston fought the 1964 Muhammad Ali, it may have been one of the greatest fights ever. I loved Eddie Machen in this fight, though he didn't stand a chance with Liston. Machen didn't throw nearly enough, but I'm sure he was hurting too much inside. He was quick, sturdy, and had fast hands, when he was up to trading with Liston. Perhaps he was waiting for Liston to slow down, which he never did. Machen's style and ability reminded me very much of Jimmy Young. My Dad, who died a month after Benny Paret, when I was 9(you can imagine how I felt with that New York Daily news photo of Paret in the hospital bed, on the bulletin board at school; my Dad was also in a coma, at the same time.), was a big fight fan, watching the Friday night fights every week, and my brother told me Eddie Machen was my dad's favorite fighter. He picked a good one. I was pleasantly surprised by the great ability of these two heavyweights; I had figured that ALL sports improved in ability, since the fifties, but Liston + Machen are "State of the Art"; Machen is as good as any Heavyweight around now, or in the last few years, and Liston is better. __________________ Needed: Sailor White + Andy Morris' height. Photos needed: Jeff Madden, Fred Bradley, Ray Sim(m?)ons, Jumbo Wells, Bob Williams, Kid Kenneth. Plus, the DEFINITIVE Tim Logan photo.

03-01-2006, 08:29 PM	#2
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Big Bad Liston ? I have to say first of all i am sorry that the film bought painful memories back to you my boxing friend. I have a good idea how memories can be painful. Over here in UK the old football fans look back with a sort of pride in the only time England ever won the world cup way back in 1966. For me it has painful memories because the day before the final my 16 year old brother lost his life in a motor bike accident. As to Liston you hit the nail on the head, he was in his prime more then a little useful as a boxer. In my personal opinion he had one of the hardest and best jabs in the business. His jab was very near equal to any other fighters best punch. Problem of course all that Sonny is remembered for now by the majority is that fight with a young Ali. If Ali had met Liston at his prime and not pretty much past his sell by date, who knows if Clay could have coped with him. In spite of Liston quitting in there first fight people might be surprised to find the scoring if i recall it correct was pretty close at the time. So makes you wonder how a 25% better Liston might have done against the wonder boy Clay. Big George Foreman once sparred a little with an Old Liston and afterwards commented on how hard the old boy could still hit. In fact later on George used to tell people that Liston was the only man who ever made him back up in a ring. As Sonny got older he was more interested with the women then getting himself in shape for fights and of course this proved to be his undoing in his fight with that rising young star Clay. I would say it would be a 50 - 50 fight with if i was pushed with my bet going for Liston if Liston had been at prime and in shape in there first fight. I have a video somewhere in the house where a young unbeaten Mike Tyson who at the time was considered by a great many experts would go on to become the greatest HW ever. In the video he is sitting with i forget the commentators name at the moment, but there both watching all the old former champions in action. Anyway in the finish Tyson was asked which out of them would he least have wanted to meet in the ring. Without hesitation he said Sonny Liston. Because he went on to add, how i was going to get past that great powerful jab of his would be a major problem for me. Then he smiled and went on, even if i managed to get inside that jab i now how to come face to face with the rest of the heavy weapons in Listons armoury. To be honest i guess most of Tysons thoughts of course were influenced by the late Cus D'AMato though. But it does give you an idea how Gus himself rated Liston when in shape of course. In Listons favour as a man when he was earning the money i believe he was one of the few who shown that old great fighter Joe Louis any compassion when Louis pretty much hit skid row. So maybe Sonny as a person was not such a bad guy after all after he mellowed a little. But of course the media loves to play the good guy v the big bad bully and thats how Sonny Liston sad to say will always be remembered.

03-02-2006, 08:30 AM	#3
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Judges scoring and how the fight really was going is two diffrent things!

03-02-2006, 11:02 AM	#5
Jim_Kidd All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida, West Coast Posts: 578	If you enjoy reading about Sonny Liston, you'll love the book entitled: The Devil & Sonny Liston. Here's a link to the book at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...sonny%20liston It's a great read. No doubt that the Sonny Liston who fought Cassius Clay in the first fight was a past-prime version. But regardless, I think Ali/Clay had the style to beat him. Plus, he also had the psychological edge over him - as he never showed any fear as most of Liston's other opponents did. Back to the book, though... I think it's the best Sonny Liston "documentary" out there.