Color-Correct Fighter Graphics

[David Myers]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

[T]his little exchange is exhibit A as to why this is a bad, bad idea.

Amen.

Btw, what about the skin color of the referee? Shouldn't it be "color correct" too?

[Lee]

It's just friggin colors, how does the word racism get injected into this in any context. I could care less one way or the other as gameplay is first to me, but what is the big deal?? A light skin, lt brn skin and darker brn skin to simulate the fighters. There should be no space for criticism or pointless innuendos......It's a game and this just helps with the immersion factor. Even though it is apples and Oranges console video games have never had an issue depicting this accurately...Again I don't get how anyone can have a problem with this??

[meade95]

Originally Posted by David Myers

A neat way to forestall criticism, but since I am a vocal supporter of the game, perhaps I can give a little of the hell that Jim has yet to catch.

What Jim proposes above is a waste of resources that could be better spent on improving game play as it affects results.

It is superficial and stupid to identify fighters by "skin color" when other personal features are far more distinctive, subtle, and relevant. A fight in the thirties or forties between an Italian-American Catholic and a Jew would be displayed on the TBCB2 screen as a bout between two "whites," but the crowd would have greeted it with somewhat different emotions. The April 1985 fight between Marvin Hagler and Thomas Hearns will be displayed as a bout between "blacks," but that's not likely to strike most viewers as the most obvious thing about two men with such different body types.

Fortunately, like some other gamers, I "fast-sim" most of my bouts and won't be assaulted by the simple-minded racism of the planned graphics.

My proposal: make one fighter bright red and the other bright blue. That will differentiate them clearly enough.

This is the most PC silly as$ post I've read on these forums in some time -

How utterly ridiculous to 1. Suggest skin color isn't a obvious and clear trait among differing boxers from which the casual person doesn't immediately take a mental note of.....and 2. To suggest that by doing such it is in any way, shape or form a sign of racism.

Take your PC attitude and throw it out the window. It is minds like yours that hold a true sense of racism within them......(and then foolishly project that on to everyone else).

[Claybor]

I think it would be great if we had various skin tones to tell the boxers apart, but I have no problem with what we have now, the boxers picture works for me. Sure, there are plenty of things that could be better, but thats a never ending story. I love the fact that I bought this game and was very happy with it, and WOW they are still making changes and improving it for me at no extra cost. Thanks and keep it up.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I still prefer the 2D overhead view. Aside from David's critique - imagine the can of worms this will open.

What does one do with a Native American, an Asian Indian, A Fijian? Every fighter will not neatly fit into black/white/Hispanic/Asian categories and then the game is opened to pointless criticism over a feature that adds little to the game play. The potential PR / PC nightmare hardly seems worth the effort.

Red and Blue (corner) 2D overhead views are the way to go in my humble opinion.

I dont' agree at all with you Conn Chris (though I enjoy your thoughts within these forums here) -

You are just way too off on the PC bandwagon on this one - The fact is having four differing color shades would suffice and give a decent reflection of differing boxers in the real world.

There is nothing at all racist about doing such.

The PC crowd running around the World today have to be told to bag it. Stop trying to run everyone else's lives.....by making mascots of this or that group of people....and speaking in the name of them only to try and make themselves feel better or superior......

When in reailty it is these very people who are consumed with race......

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I still prefer the 2D overhead view. Aside from David's critique - imagine the can of worms this will open.

What does one do with a Native American, an Asian Indian, A Fijian? Every fighter will not neatly fit into black/white/Hispanic/Asian categories and then the game is opened to pointless criticism over a feature that adds little to the game play. The potential PR / PC nightmare hardly seems worth the effort.

Red and Blue (corner) 2D overhead views are the way to go in my humble opinion.

I'll just reiterate what I said earlier - like it or not, we live in rather stupid times. This is not a button-mashing console game. It at least tries to accurately depict fighters and once you start messing with skin tones someone will get pissy or worse.

It isn't worth the effort in my opinion, just look at this thread.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I'll just reiterate what I said earlier - like it or not, we live in rather stupid times. This is not a button-mashing console game. It at least tries to accurately depict fighters and once you start messing with skin tones someone will get pissy or worse.

It isn't worth the effort in my opinion, just look at this thread.

But Conn Chris...the 2D overhead view DID have four color shades....in TF-99 and it worked great.

To suggest once you add four shades....that, that wouldn't provide everyone with "every" possible shade and therefore we (OOTP/Trunzo's) shouldn't do it because a small segement would get bad.

Tough! That small segment can go get bent! The reality is four skin shades would be a step in the right direction.

And again, the 2D overhead version did have skin tones.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by meade95

But Conn Chris...the 2D overhead view DID have four color shades....in TF-99 and it worked great.

I was not aware of that. Perhaps much ado about nothing, my only point is why waste resourses on something that might draw silly complaints.

I'll bow out with my silly complaints now.

[Jim_Kidd]

I loved the skin color options in TF-99. Yeah, maybe it did look a bit cartoonish, but TBCB II remains a text-sim at heart. The graphics do not have to be EA Sports Quality. And even EA's renderings of certain real-life athletes isn't exactly great at times.

I think the "best" you could ever hope for would be 3 different body types.
1. Thin
2. Medium
3. Heavy

Then add the skin shades you can choose from.

Even if it doesn't get that elaborate, it'll just make an already good game, better.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Jim_Kidd

I loved the skin color options in TF-99. Yeah, maybe it did look a bit cartoonish, but TBCB II remains a text-sim at heart. The graphics do not have to be EA Sports Quality. And even EA's renderings of certain real-life athletes isn't exactly great at times.

I think the "best" you could ever hope for would be 3 different body types.
1. Thin
2. Medium
3. Heavy

Then add the skin shades you can choose from.

Even if it doesn't get that elaborate, it'll just make an already good game, better.

Agree completely -

And I hope Jim Trunzo will reply back and let us know why the 2D overhead view with four differing color skins from TF-99 was taken out -

Also why were the antimation guys taken out - Both of these features being removed seemed like a step backwards for TBCB??

While at the same time every other aspect of TBCB has moved ahead by leaps and bounds .....with great resluts.

[northtexas]

delete

[northtexas]

Originally Posted by David Myers

Amen.

Btw, what about the skin color of the referee? Shouldn't it be "color correct" too?

Come on guys, think outside your own little box for a change!

If you ever want to reach a market outside of the confines of this forum something has to be done with the graphics!! I can't believe the shortsightedness of some of the folks here! Racism...baloney! Also, not everyone fast sims the fights or exclusively reads the text. Some actually watch the graphics along with the text and when Fullmer is fighting Basilio, I would at least like to see the proper skin color.

The first thing a new player notices is the graphics and to only have two dark skinned fighters representing all the races destroys the illusion.

[David Myers]

Originally Posted by northtexas

[W]hen Fullmer is fighting Basilio, I would at least like to see the proper skin color.

I have utterly no idea what this poor fellow means by differentiating the "proper skin color" of Gene Fullmer from that of Carmen Basilio. But it makes my point rather well.

To assume that all "blacks" have the same "skin color," or all "whites" or all "Hispanics," etc., is racist. And you can dismiss this argument all you want by sneering "PC," but a sneer is not a refutation.

Individual fighters--like, say, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio--are far more interesting than their "skin color." All this obsession over "color correct graphics" is creepy. It reminds me of the scientific racism of the nineteenth century, which tried to measure differences in skin color. Paul Pierre Broca actually came up with a 34-tone scale.

Maybe OOTP should get a copy of it!

[northtexas]

Originally Posted by David Myers

I have utterly no idea what this poor fellow means by differentiating the "proper skin color" of Gene Fullmer from that of Carmen Basilio. But it makes my point rather well

Poor fellow??? Seems like you like to demean anyone who has a differing opinion! This is not rocket science to have two light skinned animations representing Basilio & Fullmer. The only person who seems to be hung up on racism is you.

I've been playing the Trunzo's boxing games since it was part of Lance Haffner and I agree the best representation they've ever had was the top down view which did have at least three different skin tones.

[David Myers]

Originally Posted by northtexas

Poor fellow??? Seems like you like to demean anyone who has a differing opinion!

You are rather easily demeaned, my poor fellow.

Look: to see skin color as a category difference among human beings--that is, to lump some humans into one category labeled "black" and others into a category labeled "white"--is racism. The idea has a history, you know. It is not a natural or obvious way to differentiate among human beings. "Race" in terms of "skin color" was unknown prior to the rise of black slavery and the shameful effort to defend it.

See Jacques Barzun, Race: A Study in Modern Superstition (New York: Harcourt, Brace, 1937).

[Mudster]

Originally Posted by David Myers

It would help if you could actually read. I spoke of the "simple-minded racism of the planned graphics," and said nothing whatever about Jim Trunzo, whom I happen to respect enormously.

For someone who's so worried about others being offended, you seem to have no problem trying to judge a person's intellect by how they interpret what you stated. Personally, though, being PC is a matter of choice. If you want to be PC, that's fine. If you don't want to be PC, that's fine too. But to call wanting to make the fighters on a frickin game look a little more like they did in real life "simple minded racism" is simply over doing it. I bet you are one of those "Holiday Tree" people too.....Personally, I don't know where anyone gets off by telling Jim Trunzo that he shouldn't work on a part of the game that he wants to work on because you think it's "a waste of resources that could be better spent on improving game play as it affects results". They've got this game running pretty damn smooth as it is and I'm sure that any resources that they've made from this game have been used up a long time ago.

[Mudster]

...and this i gotta know from that previous post...if you wouldn't call someone's race "black", what would you call them? If you call them a "negro" or an "african-american", you're going to get hit. I have some very good black friends at work and we've had this discussion on PC and they all say the same thing.."I'm black...I've never been to Africa so don't call me an African-American"...and they are from all different education levels too, before you bring that up. Most people that the PC nuts are "defending and protecting" really wish you would just shut the hell up.

[wildhawke11]

The fighters skin colours in the game is now the one BIG let down.
We old die hard boxing fans can live with it. But its such a shame that one last big effort could not be made to make this little game into the classic it deserves to be. If five colours is to much work could we not have three. Black, white and a sort of light brown even that would make it look a little better.

[David Myers]

Originally Posted by Mudster

Personally, though, being PC is a matter of choice. If you want to be PC, that's fine. If you don't want to be PC, that's fine too.

Ouch. I just don't know how I will be able to sleep tonight.

Originally Posted by Mudster

Personally, I don't know where anyone gets off by telling Jim Trunzo that he shouldn't work on a part of the game that he wants to work on because you think it's "a waste of resources that could be better spent on improving game play as it affects results".

Let me be impersonal here. Before a view is attributed to someone, his exact words should be consulted. I wrote: "What Jim proposes above is a waste of resources that could be better spent on improving game play as it affects results." To say that something is a waste of resources is nothing like saying that someone shouldn't commit the resources if he wants.

If Jim wants to work on skin colors he is obviously free to do so! I just think it is a mistake to do so. I have said nothing whatever about being "offended." To mistake my arguments against skin color for "PC" "offense" is to assume you know what is being said even without reading it very closely.

Enough beating, though. The horse is well dead.

Just one request, Jim. Please provide a default option that uses something like the current graphical representations.

[David Myers]

Originally Posted by Mudster

if you wouldn't call someone's race "black", what would you call them?

What about not "calling" them anything at all? Except perhaps by their names.