PING: Tiger Fan - Questions about your blog

[cephasjames]

Thanks so much for your blog. It got my hopes up because it looks like the game is really turning into what I hoped it would. But it brought up a few questions I hope you can answer.

1. Are League Equivalencies on a slider?

start by adding the major leagues with 8 teams in each the American and National Leagues. I add a full compliment of minor leagues to give me a good representation of baseball in the 1930's. I have two AAA leagues (International and American Association) that will work together so I can have a AAA 'Little World Series'. Next, I create the Southern League, Texas League and Eastern League as my "AA" Leagues. I then add 4 Class A Leagues, 6 Class B Leagues and 4 Class 'C' leagues. I could add Class D but I figure that is enough for now. I should add I have tweaked the overall player skill at each level so that the leagues get progressively worse just like it would be in real life. When it is all said and done my 1930's major league association has 19 affiliated minor leagues that range in size from 4 to 8 teams.

Up until you wrote this I had no idea it was even possible to go below Rookie. Can you give a description of how to set up L.E.?

2. Is there a suggested equivalency for each level?

3. How is affiliation set up?

Even though I am using fictional players I try to tilt things a little in favour of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals and other traditionally strong organizations of the era by giving them upwards of 15 minor league affiliates while the Browns, Phillies and Senators have just 6 or 7.

Do you set it up through the minor league team or major league team?

4. How easy is it to set up the salaries?

In my case I set the average salaries for less than one percent of the modern day standard. So in my 1930's universe the average ticket price to a game will be 50 cents, teams get around $100,000 a year revenue from radio broadcasting rights and an average player will earn around $15,000. I am guessing this will give me around $500,000 a year average revenue for a team. Of course, for the Pacific Coast League and the foreign leagues I will make these numbers lower so players can jump leagues when enticed by an Major salary.

Did it feel really overwhelming trying to figure it out?

5. Did you feel like your head was going to explode because of all the choices in front of you? Or were you so happy that you wet your pants?

[Tiger Fan]

Because of my nda I am not certain if I am allowed to answer your questions. I will pm Marc and see what I can or cannot say. I do think I am safe in answering #5 thought.

5. Did you feel like your head was going to explode because of all the choices in front of you? Or were you so happy that you wet your pants?

Much closer to the second option than the first.
__________________

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

Because of my nda I am not certain if I am allowed to answer your questions. I will pm Marc and see what I can or cannot say. I do think I am safe in answering #5 thought.

Oh yeah, didn't even think about that. Well, answer whatever you can. I'm sure Marc or Markus can teach you how to answer without really answering yet making it sound like you answer. They're pretty good at that.

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

5. Did you feel like your head was going to explode because of all the choices in front of you? Or were you so happy that you wet your pants?

Much closer to the second option than the first.

Excellent.

[Tiger Fan]

Marc gave me the okay to answer questions directly relating to my blog. I figured it would be fine for me to answer but I wanted to be sure because of my NDA.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

1. Are League Equivalencies on a slider? Up until you wrote this I had no idea it was even possible to go below Rookie. Can you give a description of how to set up L.E.?

2. Is there a suggested equivalency for each level?

For the League Equiv. it is set up similiarily to how OOTP6.5 did league modifiers. You set a percentage rather than just have 4 or 5 options on a slider to choose from. As for number 2 the answer is yes.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

3. How is affiliation set up? Do you set it up through the minor league team or major league team?

From each Minor league the teams can select who their major league affiliate will be.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

4. How easy is it to set up the salaries? Did it feel really overwhelming trying to figure it out?

Quite simple to set up and did not feel overwhelming. However, individual users may want to tinker a bit to get the right mix for their league.

[liamdaly]

I know you said you were using fictional players, but if one were to use real players, is it possible to import from multiple databases? For example, one database for Major Leagues, another for PCL players, and maybe another for the Japanese Leagues?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Up until you wrote this I had no idea it was even possible to go below Rookie.

It would appear from this question that you're not familiar with how the minor league classification system has changed over the years. So let me provide a quick answer (or as quick as a long-winded poster like myself can be):

In 1902, the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues was formed and existed with the following classifications: A, B, C, D.

In 1912, the classification of AA was established as the highest classification, the system was as follows: AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1936, the classification of A1 was established between AA and A, creating: AA, A1, A, B, C, D.

In 1946, the system was restructured with AA leagues becoming AAA and A1 leagues becoming AA, resulting in: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1952, the classification of Open was established for the Pacific Coast League to help it become a major league: Open, AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1958, the classification of Open was removed when the National League moved into Los Angeles and San Francisco: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1963, the system was radically restructured to: AAA, AA, A, Rookie.

Rookie class leagues played short seasons from the start. The separation of A level leagues into full length and short season versions didn't start until later (the defunct Class A Northern League started playing short seasons in 1965, the Northwest League in 1966, and the New York-Pennsylvania League in 1967).

Sometime around 1990, the A and Rookie levels were divided, resulting in: AAA, AA, A (Advanced), A, A (Short Season), Rookie (Advanced), Rookie.

Note that prior to 1963, the classification attached to a minor league was based on the aggregate population of the individual cities comprising the league. In 1950, for example, a minor league whose cities' population added together fell into the following ranges were classified as follows:

AAA: 3,000,000+
AA: 1,750,000+ to 3,000,000
A: 1,000,000+ to 1,750,000
B: 250,000+ to 1,000,000
C: 150,000+ to 250,000
D: up to 150,000


And lastly here's what the minors actually looked like in 1930, the year Tiger Fan chose for his blog:

Class AA
American Association
International League
Pacific Coast League

Class A
Eastern League
New York-Pennsylvania League
Southern Association
Texas League
Western League

Class B
Central League
Illinois-Indiana-Iowa League (or Three-I League as it was commonly known)
New England League
South Atlantic League
Southeastern League

Class C
Middle Atlantic League
Ontario League
Piedmont League
Western Association

Class D
Arizona State League
Blue Ridge League
Cotton States League
Georgia-Alabama League
Mississippi Valley League
Nebraska State League

[Qrusher14242]

Does the game remember the path to databases? Or do we have to go to it every year.

[tim_uwrf]

Originally Posted by Qrusher14242

Does the game remember the path to databases? Or do we have to go to it every year.

Thats a fabulous question...

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It would appear from this question that you're not familiar with how the minor league classification system has changed over the years.

After reading your post, I see that you are very correct in your assumption. Thank you, it was very informative. Except now I have to go back and refigure my whole world - which I was trying to base off of real history. It should be easier now though.

[jarmenia]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It would appear from this question that you're not familiar with how the minor league classification system has changed over the years. So let me provide a quick answer (or as quick as a long-winded poster like myself can be):

In 1902, the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues was formed and existed with the following classifications: A, B, C, D.

In 1912, the classification of AA was established as the highest classification, the system was as follows: AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1936, the classification of A1 was established between AA and A, creating: AA, A1, A, B, C, D.

In 1946, the system was restructured with AA leagues becoming AAA and A1 leagues becoming AA, resulting in: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1952, the classification of Open was established for the Pacific Coast League to help it become a major league: Open, AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1958, the classification of Open was removed when the National League moved into Los Angeles and San Francisco: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D.

In 1963, the system was radically restructured to: AAA, AA, A, Rookie.

Rookie class leagues played short seasons from the start. The separation of A level leagues into full length and short season versions didn't start until later (the defunct Class A Northern League started playing short seasons in 1965, the Northwest League in 1966, and the New York-Pennsylvania League in 1967).

Sometime around 1990, the A and Rookie levels were divided, resulting in: AAA, AA, A (Advanced), A, A (Short Season), Rookie (Advanced), Rookie.

Note that prior to 1963, the classification attached to a minor league was based on the aggregate population of the individual cities comprising the league. In 1950, for example, a minor league whose cities' population added together fell into the following ranges were classified as follows:

AAA: 3,000,000+
AA: 1,750,000+ to 3,000,000
A: 1,000,000+ to 1,750,000
B: 250,000+ to 1,000,000
C: 150,000+ to 250,000
D: up to 150,000


And lastly here's what the minors actually looked like in 1930, the year Tiger Fan chose for his blog:

Class AA
American Association
International League
Pacific Coast League

Class A
Eastern League
New York-Pennsylvania League
Southern Association
Texas League
Western League

Class B
Central League
Illinois-Indiana-Iowa League (or Three-I League as it was commonly known)
New England League
South Atlantic League
Southeastern League

Class C
Middle Atlantic League
Ontario League
Piedmont League
Western Association

Class D
Arizona State League
Blue Ridge League
Cotton States League
Georgia-Alabama League
Mississippi Valley League
Nebraska State League

LGO, is that data posted anywhere? I'd love to get it for MLB from 1901 to the present.

Thanks,

John

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Class AA
American Association
International League
Pacific Coast League

Class A
Eastern League
New York-Pennsylvania League
Southern Association
Texas League
Western League

Class B
Central League
Illinois-Indiana-Iowa League (or Three-I League as it was commonly known)
New England League
South Atlantic League
Southeastern League

Class C
Middle Atlantic League
Ontario League
Piedmont League
Western Association

Class D
Arizona State League
Blue Ridge League
Cotton States League
Georgia-Alabama League
Mississippi Valley League
Nebraska State League

So would a modern day equivalent to this be AAA, AA, A Advanced, A, Rookie? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

[cephasjames]

Tiger Fan, a few more questions.

1. This screenshot shows a quick step for making minor leagues. Is that how you made yours? If you did it that way are those leagues automatically affiliated with the major league you created them through?

2. According to your experience are affiated minor leagues affiliated to leagues or sub-leagues (I think I know but I just want to ask)?

3. It doesn't say in your blog, but did you try to do any independent minor leagues?

[struggles_mightily]

Hi, Tiger Fan. Really enjoyed reading your blog entry. Just one question, though:

You mentioned that you upped the HR-hitting abilities for players in the Texas League because the leaguie's stadiums were smaller than average. But by increasing HR-hitting talent, wouldn't that create players who ACTUALLY are good home run hitters, rather than just players who seem better due to the parks they play in, but are no better than equivalent players in other leagues. Wouldn't it be better to create the effect you wanted by letting the Texas League create players who hit Home Runs at a level equal to similar leagues, but making the Texas ballparks smaller in order to push up the Home Run values? Perhaps I misunderstood.

-

Lots of stuff about the minor leagues

Great work, LGO. That's really useful information.

Just out of interest, you said this:

Note that prior to 1963, the classification attached to a minor league was based on the aggregate population of the individual cities comprising the league.

So, how has it been calculated since 1963? I guess it's something to with the level of play, perhaps. If so, are there any hard and fast values or calculations used to grade leagues on the minor league scale. For example, you often hear of the Japanese Leagues being described as 'about AAA standard'. How is this sort of thing worked out these days?

Also, if by 1952 the standard for assessing leagues was still net population of cities, when and how did the PCL gain 'open' classification? Just wondering if that league actually surpassed a certain number in terms of the population of its teams' cities, or if 'open' classification was more a way of recognising the high quality of play in the PCL.

Thanks for any help you can provide on those topics.

[endgame]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange
It would appear from this question that you're not familiar with how the minor league classification system has changed over the years.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

After reading your post, I see that you are very correct in your assumption. Thank you, it was very informative. Except now I have to go back and refigure my whole world - which I was trying to base off of real history. It should be easier now though.

Not an uncommon reaction to LGO's contributions. Thanks LGO, for the wealth of information you continue to offer us. It's greatly appreciated, not to mention impressive.

[Treadle]

I stole teh followoign file from Baseball Mogul 2006's Minor League Folder.

Can I import it as is into new OOTP?

Anaheim Angels,Salt Lake Stingers (AAA),Arkansas Travelers (AA),Rancho Cucamonga Quakes (A),Provo Angels (R)
Arizona Diamondbacks,Tucson Sidewinders (AAA),Tennessee Smokies (AA),South Bend Silver Hawks (A),Missoula Osprey (R)
Atlanta Braves,Richmond Braves (AAA),Mississippi Braves (AA),Myrtle Beach Pelicans (A),Danville Braves (R)
Baltimore Orioles,Ottawa Lynx (AAA),Bowie Baysox (AA),Frederick Keys (A),Bluefield Orioles (R)
Boston Red Sox,Pawtucket Red Sox (AAA),Portland Sea Dogs (AA),Wilmington Blue Rocks (A),Lowell Spinners (R)
Chicago Cubs,Iowa Cubs (AAA),West Tenn Diamond Jaxx (AA),Peoria Chiefs (A),Boise Hawks (R)
Chicago White Sox,Charlotte Knights (AAA),Birmingham Barons (AA),Winston-Salem Warthogs (A),Bristol White Sox (R)
Cincinnati Reds,Louisville Bats (AAA),Chattanooga Lookouts (AA),Dayton Dragons (A),Billings Mustangs (R)
Cleveland Indians,Buffalo Bisons (AAA),Akron Aeros (AA),Lake County Captains (A),Burlington Indians (R)
Colorado Rockies,Colorado Springs Sky Sox (AAA),Tulsa Drillers (AA),Asheville Tourists (A),Tri City Dust Devils (R)
Detroit Tigers,Toledo Mud Hens (AAA),Erie Seawolves (AA),Lakeland Tigers (A),Oneonta Tigers (R)
Florida Marlins,Albuquerque Isotopes (AAA),Carolina Mudcats (AA),Greensboro Grasshoppers (A),Jamestown Jammers (R)
Houston Astros,Round Rock Express (AAA),Corpus Christi Hooks (AA),Salem Avalanche (A),Greeneville Astros (R)
Kansas City Royals,Omaha Royals (AAA),Wichita Wranglers (AA),High Desert Mavericks (A),Idaho Falls (R)
Los Angeles Dodgers,Las Vegas 51s (AAA),Jacksonville Suns (AA),Vero Beach Dodgers (A),Ogden Raptors (R)
Milwaukee Brewers,Nashville Sounds (AAA),Huntsville Stars (AA),Brevard County Manatees (A),Helena Brewers (R)
Minnesota Twins,Rochester Red Wings (AAA),New Britain Rock Cats (AA),Ft. Myers Miracle (A),Beloit Snappers (R)
New York Mets,Norfolk Tides (AAA),Binghamton Mets (AA),St. Lucie Mets (A),Kingsport Mets (R)
New York Yankees,Columbus Clippers (AAA),Trenton Thunder (AA),Tampa Yankees (A),Charleston Riverdogs (R)
Oakland Athletics,Sacramento River Cats (AAA),Midland Rockhounds (AA),Kane County Cougars (A),Vancouver Canadians (R)
Philadelphia Phillies,Scranton Red Barons (AAA),Reading Phillies (AA),Clearwater Threshers (A),Batavia Muckdogs (R)
Pittsburgh Pirates,Indianapolis Indians (AAA),Altoona Curve (AA),Lynchburg Hillcats (A),Williamsport Crosscutters (R)
San Diego Padres,Portland Beavers (AAA),Mobile BayBears (AA),Lake Elsinore Storm (A),Ft. Wayne Wizards (R)
San Francisco Giants,Fresno Grizzlies (AAA),Norwich Navigators (AA),San Jose Giants (A),Salem Volcanoes (R)
Seattle Mariners,Tacoma Rainiers (AAA),San Antonio Missions (AA),Wisconsin Timber Rattlers (A),Everett AquaSox (R)
St. Louis Cardinals,Memphis Redbirds (AAA),El Paso Diablos (AA),Palm Beach Cardinals (A),Johnson City Cardinals (R)
Tampa Bay Devil Rays,Durham Bulls (AAA),Montgomery Biscuits (AA),Visalia Oaks (A),Hudson Valley Renegades (R)
Texas Rangers,Oklahoma RedHawks (AAA),Frisco RoughRiders (AA),Bakersfield Blaze (A),Clinton Lumberkings (R)
Toronto Blue Jays,Syracuse SkyChiefs (AAA),New Hampshire Fisher Cats (AA),Dunedin Blue Jays (A), Lansing Lugnuts (R)
Washington Nationals,New Orleans Zephyrs (AAA),Harrisburg Senators (AA),Potomac Cannons (A),Savannah Sand Gnats (R)
Montreal Expos,New Orleans Zephyrs (AAA),Harrisburg Senators (AA),Potomac Cannons (A),Savannah Sand Gnats (R)
Los Angeles Angels,Salt Lake Stingers (AAA),Arkansas Travelers (AA),Rancho Cucamonga Quakes (A),Provo Angels (R)

Also, does anyone know where we can getfiles likes this for all the years?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by jarmenia

LGO, is that data posted anywhere? I'd love to get it for MLB from 1901 to the present.

Check out this thread from the Mods forum. It's about a minor league team history file that has listed a huge number of minor leagues from over the years and includes notations about the classification of the league and the major league team affiliations. It's an Excel file so the data in it can easily be sorted or filtered as needed.

Only problem is the OOTP Download Center link mentioned is a dead link. Someone not too long ago posted an updated link to a site hosting the file, but I've searched the forums and I'll be damned if I can dig up the new link.

Visting the web site mentioned in the linked thread would be quite helpful too.

Originally Posted by cephasjames

So would a modern day equivalent to this be AAA, AA, A Advanced, A, Rookie? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

Easiest way is to just think of the classes as tiers or levels and not worry about whatever letter is used to designate a particular tier as those have changed over the years. Instead, think of it as first tier, second tier, and so on.

In current day terms, AAA would be first tier, AA second tier, Advanced A third tier, and so on. In 1930, AA would be first tier, A second tier, B third tier, and so on.

An approximation to be sure but I think a reasonably useful one.

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

So, how has it been calculated since 1963? I guess it's something to with the level of play, perhaps. If so, are there any hard and fast values or calculations used to grade leagues on the minor league scale. For example, you often hear of the Japanese Leagues being described as 'about AAA standard'. How is this sort of thing worked out these days?

No idea really, but if you think about it size of the cities of a league would utimately translate into league quality. A league composed of cities with large populations would likely have higher average attendances, meaning more revenue and thus more resources for those clubs to pay higher caliber players. A league with small towns wouldn't be able to compete for top talent.

There haven't been any real changes of league classification since 1963, other than subdividing the A and Rookie classes. As to judging the relative quality of foreign or independent leagues, there are pros far more mathematically able than I who do such things as a matter of course.

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

Also, if by 1952 the standard for assessing leagues was still net population of cities, when and how did the PCL gain 'open' classification? Just wondering if that league actually surpassed a certain number in terms of the population of its teams' cities, or if 'open' classification was more a way of recognising the high quality of play in the PCL.

This is what I have in regards to specific information on what things a minor league needed to have in order to qualify for the Open classification:

• Average paid league attendance of at least 2.25 million for the previous five seasons.
• Total population of the cities of the member clubs of at least 10 million.
• A combined park capacity of at least 125,000

Other benefits to the Open classification: an Open league club could retain a player for five years instead of four before that player was subject to the draft; if a player was drafted, the minor league club was paid $15,000 instead of $10,000; and if a drafted player wasn't kept by the drafting team the original club could reacquire the player for $7,500 (note that these are in 1950s dollar values). Also, Open leagues had first pick in the draft after AL and NL clubs, although there were not permitted to draft players from AAA level minor leagues.

For comparison, here are the qualifications to be considered a major league from the same time period:

• Average paid league attendance of 3.5 million for the previous three seasons.
• Total population of the cities of the member clubs of at least 15 million.
• Each club's ballpark had to have a seating capacity of at least 25,000.
• A minimum of eight clubs in the league.
• A balanced schedule of at least 154 games

Originally Posted by endgame

Not an uncommon reaction to LGO's contributions. Thanks LGO, for the wealth of information you continue to offer us. It's greatly appreciated, not to mention impressive.

Thanks for the kind words. I only wish I had written the opening sentence from my initial post better; after rereading it later I saw that it might have come across as a little arrogant. That certainly wasn't my intent — I genuinely wasn't sure how much cephasjames and thought I'd post up what info I had. If he already knew it, then perhaps it would've been of interest to others.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Easiest way is to just think of the classes as tiers or levels and not worry about whatever letter is used to designate a particular tier as those have changed over the years. Instead, think of it as first tier, second tier, and so on.

In current day terms, AAA would be first tier, AA second tier, Advanced A third tier, and so on. In 1930, AA would be first tier, A second tier, B third tier, and so on.

Thanks, that helped a lot. I was starting to come to that conclusion myself, but wasn't sure if it was right. Now, do you know how much of a difference there is between A (advanced), A, A (Short Season)? The reason I'm asking this is because I'm trying really hard to simplify my "world" while sticking "as close to possible" to the real world. I'm thinking of just doing an A, B, C, D (maybe E) set up, where all of the C leagues (which includes all versions of the modern A) are bunched together. If the modern A's differ enough I might divide my C's into C's and D's (I hope that makes sense) and make my D's into E's (again I hope that makes sense). I realize I can do whatever I want but I'm just trying to makes things fluid from 1901 to now.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Thanks for the kind words. I only wish I had written the opening sentence from my initial post better; after rereading it later I saw that it might have come across as a little arrogant. That certainly wasn't my intent — I genuinely wasn't sure how much cephasjames and thought I'd post up what info I had. If he already knew it, then perhaps it would've been of interest to others.

You came across fine and I didn't know any of what you said so it was all very helpful. Thanks.

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

Hi, Tiger Fan. Really enjoyed reading your blog entry. Just one question, though:

You mentioned that you upped the HR-hitting abilities for players in the Texas League because the leaguie's stadiums were smaller than average. But by increasing HR-hitting talent, wouldn't that create players who ACTUALLY are good home run hitters, rather than just players who seem better due to the parks they play in, but are no better than equivalent players in other leagues. Wouldn't it be better to create the effect you wanted by letting the Texas League create players who hit Home Runs at a level equal to similar leagues, but making the Texas ballparks smaller in order to push up the Home Run values? Perhaps I misunderstood.

I think you did misunderstand. The changes I discussed to the Texas League to increase homers was in the league totals....similiar to league totals in OOTP6. I would also make the ballparks homerun setting higher as well. I did not mean to imply I would increase the power ability of the Texas Leaguers. However, for my Western Canada League which was an independant minor league not associated with the majors I did consider increase the homer totals in the league equivilancies.

What I was trying to convey with that statement was that each level (majors, AAA, AA etc) can have it's own league totals as opposed to OOTP6 where you had no options to set league totals for minor leagues.

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Tiger Fan, a few more questions.

1. This screenshot shows a quick step for making minor leagues. Is that how you made yours? If you did it that way are those leagues automatically affiliated with the major league you created them through?

2. According to your experience are affiated minor leagues affiliated to leagues or sub-leagues (I think I know but I just want to ask)?

3. It doesn't say in your blog, but did you try to do any independent minor leagues?

Answers
1- Yes I did it that way for this league and yes they are automatically affiliated with the parent major league.

2- Affiliated to teams on the highest level. Think of it just like major league baseball and the present day minors.

3- yes I did. See this paragraph from my blog. "In this universe I want the Pacific Coast League to act almost as a 3rd Major League. It will be completely independent from the Major system. The talent level will not be as good as the major leagues but the PCL clubs will not be farm teams for the majors. I am also going run Canadian, Mexican and Cuban Leagues."

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Now, do you know how much of a difference there is between A (advanced), A, A (Short Season)?

No, I don't really know how much of a difference there is. But for what it's worth MLB does classify each as a separate level, so presumably there is some sort of difference between them.

Note that short season leagues are a relatively recent invention. While the creation of the Rookie classification in 1963 had those leagues playing short seasons from the start, Class A short seasons didn't start until 1965-67. And before 1963 there were almost no short season leagues at all; the first ones that I'm aware of are the Nebraska State League of 1956-59 and the Appalachian League of 1957-62, both of which were officially Class D leagues but played short seasons.

Prior to those leagues, all U.S. and Canadian based minor leagues played full length seasons of 120 games or longer, with many playing seasons of 140 or 154 games. The higher class leagues sometimes played seasons longer than the majors; the PCL famously played 200+ game long seasons early in its history, while the AA and IL played 168 game seasons for many years before reducing to 154 games. In 1965 the higher level minors schedules were reduced to 148 games or less, and eventually that settled down into the current 140-144 game range that all but the short season leagues now play.