No More Martz, No More Martz!!

Dwolfson20 · 01-02-2006, 03:41 PM

Ceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelebrate good times, COME ON!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2277862

Gastric ReFlux · 01-02-2006, 03:44 PM

I see people still don't appreciate the genius of Mike Martz. I'm sure Mike will be along to tell everyone that, too.

dsvitak · 01-02-2006, 03:47 PM

The genius of Mike Martz is only matched by his arrogance.

To build a winning franchise, you need consensus, respect, and a team effort.

His genius allowed him to win a super bowl, then his personality became counter-productive.

You wouldn't believe the stories, here in St. Louis, about the level of animosity and back stabbing within the Ram's organization.

Dwolfson20 · 01-02-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

His genius allowed him to win a super bowl, then his personality became counter-productive.

That, and Dick Vermeil's players.

I still hate the Rams, but serious props for finally taking out the trash. It was getting nasty in the Jones Dome.

TonyJ · 01-02-2006, 04:04 PM

Martz is a legitimately great NFL coach....as an offensive coordinator. As a head coach he is as bad as it gets. Some enterprising team will likely hire him as an OC. He is finished as a head coach I would imagine.

Dwolfson20 · 01-02-2006, 04:10 PM

Not even that. He should be a QB coach and nothing more. The only reason he succeeded as OC in STL is because he had amazing players and an HC in Vermeil who refused to take his ****.

If you'll notice, the other two men who molded that Rams team, Vermeil and Al Saunders, moved on to KC, and what happened? They became the best offense in football. Meanwhile, the Rams are 6-10 this year.

TonyJ · 01-02-2006, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

Not even that. He should be a QB coach and nothing more. The only reason he succeeded as OC in STL is because he had amazing players and an HC in Vermeil who refused to take his ****.

If you'll notice, the other two men who molded that Rams team, Vermeil and Al Saunders, moved on to KC, and what happened? They became the best offense in football. Meanwhile, the Rams are 6-10 this year.

Except that up until this season, the Rams had also had highly explosive offenses even after Vermeil left. You can give credit to "Vermeil's players" if you wish, but he was obviously doing something right. This season the talent level was down mostly due to injuries so he has to be cut some slack for that.

sebastian0622 · 01-02-2006, 04:17 PM

Martz will do a lot of good things for a team somewhere as an offensive coordinator. He's a premiere OC.

Dwolfson20 · 01-02-2006, 04:19 PM

No, not really. The offensive line has been worse each year since Vermeil left. Bruce and Faulk are too old, which isn't Martz's fault, but who has he replaced Bruce with? Sean McDonald? Kevin Curtis? He got lucky with Jackson. Anyway, I'm not saying he knows nothing, he is obviously competent enough to call good plays for a talented offense. But he's not even particularly good at that if the offense doesn't have talent. His real skill is finding and developing QBs, so I see no reason not to hire him to coach that position. I'd never, ever consider him for my OC spot, though. Arrogance + power = bad combo.

The reason Martz kept winning is because he had good QBs, which is the most important position on the field, and also his area of legitimate skill. Green and Warner, sure, but the best thing he did was steal Bulger and turn him into a top-notch QB. If they don't have Bulger, Martz would have been fired two years ago. So, I still see no reason to give him another OC job, UNLESS it's with someone like the Packers who have some actual players.

Aordolin · 01-02-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Martz will do a lot of good things for a team somewhere as an offensive coordinator. He's a premiere OC.

he is premierly overrated. how brillant do you have to be with Kurt Warner, Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, and Tory Holt? I am amazed he lasted as long as he did. I put him in the catagory with Norv Turner as one of the most overrated football "mind" in the game.

darkhorse · 01-02-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

His genius allowed him to win a super bowl

Really, when did this happen?

rem · 01-02-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aordolin

he is premierly overrated. how brillant do you have to be with Kurt Warner, Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, and Tory Holt? I am amazed he lasted as long as he did. I put him in the catagory with Norv Turner as one of the most overrated football "mind" in the game.

Except Turner has next to no Head Coaching success.

TonyJ · 01-02-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

No, not really. The offensive line has been worse each year since Vermeil left. Bruce and Faulk are too old, which isn't Martz's fault, but who has he replaced Bruce with? Sean McDonald? Kevin Curtis? He got lucky with Jackson.

His skills evaluating talent have nothing to do with his abilities as an OC. He won't be picking the players or choosing who starts as an OC.

Quote:

The reason Martz kept winning is because he had good QBs, which is the most important position on the field, and also his area of legitimate skill. Green and Warner, sure, but the best thing he did was steal Bulger and turn him into a top-notch QB. If they don't have Bulger, Martz would have been fired two years ago. So, I still see no reason to give him another OC job, UNLESS it's with someone like the Packers who have some actual players.

First of all, you could say that about a lot of coaches. If Holmgren hadn't had Alexander and Hasselbeck he would have been fired two years ago. He had them and won. Martz had what he was given and they scored a lot of points until this season, when he didn't have crap for a QB after Bulger got hurt.

Also, I'm not sure that the QB's have made the system or been made by the system. Green has only succeeded in the Martz/Vermeil offense. Bulger has never played anywhere else and Warner has been pretty uh, crappy outside of his years with the Rams. Obviously they have some talent, but a lot has been the coaching and the play-calling.

Overall, I realize how much you hate Martz, but I think you are blinding yourself to not give him any credit whatsoever. The Rams offense was explosive while Vermeil was coach and until this season continued to be. You have to give Martz some credit for that.

Aordolin · 01-02-2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

Except Turner has next to no Head Coaching success.

I was not comparing their head coaching sucess, I was commenting on whether they are deserving of the genius tag so often given to them. Maybe not Turner so much anymore. Turner has coached far more horrible teams and in divisions with legitimate opponents, not in the patsy NFC West

TonyJ · 01-02-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aordolin

I was not comparing their head coaching sucess, I was commenting on whether they are deserving of the genius tag so often given to them. Maybe not Turner so much anymore. Turner has coached far more horrible teams and in divisions with legitimate opponents, not in the patsy NFC West

To me, any notion that Turner is some sort of brilliant coaching mind was destroyed this season. You have arguably the best receiver in the NFL and you as him as...a decoy?

abailey3313 · 01-02-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyJ

First of all, you could say that about a lot of coaches. If Holmgren hadn't had Alexander and Hasselbeck he would have been fired two years ago. He had them and won. Martz had what he was given and they scored a lot of points until this season, when he didn't have crap for a QB after Bulger got hurt.

I was going to make the same point.

01-02-2006, 03:41 PM	#1
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	No More Martz, No More Martz!! Ceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelebrate good times, COME ON! http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2277862 __________________ Last edited by Dwolfson20; 01-02-2006 at 03:44 PM.

01-02-2006, 04:04 PM	#5
TonyJ Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Gassin' Kurds Posts: 2,019	Martz is a legitimately great NFL coach....as an offensive coordinator. As a head coach he is as bad as it gets. Some enterprising team will likely hire him as an OC. He is finished as a head coach I would imagine. __________________ My Podcasts: Talk Democratic Dysfunction Name Two Bands with Andy and Andy

01-02-2006, 04:10 PM	#6
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Not even that. He should be a QB coach and nothing more. The only reason he succeeded as OC in STL is because he had amazing players and an HC in Vermeil who refused to take his ***. If you'll notice, the other two men who molded that Rams team, Vermeil and Al Saunders, moved on to KC, and what happened? They became the best offense in football. Meanwhile, the Rams are 6-10 this year. __________________ Last edited by Dwolfson20; 01-02-2006 at 04:12 PM.*

01-02-2006, 04:19 PM	#9
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	No, not really. The offensive line has been worse each year since Vermeil left. Bruce and Faulk are too old, which isn't Martz's fault, but who has he replaced Bruce with? Sean McDonald? Kevin Curtis? He got lucky with Jackson. Anyway, I'm not saying he knows nothing, he is obviously competent enough to call good plays for a talented offense. But he's not even particularly good at that if the offense doesn't have talent. His real skill is finding and developing QBs, so I see no reason not to hire him to coach that position. I'd never, ever consider him for my OC spot, though. Arrogance + power = bad combo. The reason Martz kept winning is because he had good QBs, which is the most important position on the field, and also his area of legitimate skill. Green and Warner, sure, but the best thing he did was steal Bulger and turn him into a top-notch QB. If they don't have Bulger, Martz would have been fired two years ago. So, I still see no reason to give him another OC job, UNLESS it's with someone like the Packers who have some actual players. __________________ Last edited by Dwolfson20; 01-02-2006 at 04:22 PM.

01-02-2006, 03:44 PM	#2
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I see people still don't appreciate the genius of Mike Martz. I'm sure Mike will be along to tell everyone that, too.

01-02-2006, 03:47 PM	#3
dsvitak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,393	The genius of Mike Martz is only matched by his arrogance. To build a winning franchise, you need consensus, respect, and a team effort. His genius allowed him to win a super bowl, then his personality became counter-productive. You wouldn't believe the stories, here in St. Louis, about the level of animosity and back stabbing within the Ram's organization.

01-02-2006, 04:17 PM	#8
sebastian0622 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,465	Martz will do a lot of good things for a team somewhere as an offensive coordinator. He's a premiere OC.