Cubs 2005-06 Offseason Thread

[boilermaker]

nevermind. (edit)

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

Damon is okay, but he'll be vastly overpaid and he couldn't throw out Jason Phillips at the plate. Giles is definitely the best bet, he's perenially underrated and likes Dusty Baker. Which is a bit of a quandary, since I seriously doubt the Cubs ability to win anything with Baker at the helm.

The thing with Damon is yes he's overpaid, and slightly overrated. However the cubs need a center fielder. And damon is the best free agent out there. I would support a short term contract to damon. I'm not sold of Felix Pie. He seems like the second coming of Patterson. And unlike patterson i'd like to give him a chance to develope in the minors. Damon or even Pierre would allow for that.

If damon is way too expensive i'd support trying hairston out there full time. Although honestly i could live with patterson one more year as long as a solid right fielder is found and the bullpen taken care of. Those are more pressing matters in my opinion.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

Eric Patterson has a .301 AVG and a .344 OBP. He'll obviously be like his older brother... very little plate discipline

Dola,
Plate discipline usually takes a few years to develope. Its rare to have young players with a ton of plate discipline. Eric Patterson has only had one year in the minors, he'll likely become a bit more patient.

[NCBeachBum]

So, since ESPN is reporting that Pierre will be a Cub within the next day or two, does this mean they're resigned that Furcal will sign with the Mets?

[bigdgp2]

Originally Posted by NCBeachBum

So, since ESPN is reporting that Pierre will be a Cub within the next day or two, does this mean they're resigned that Furcal will sign with the Mets?

I don't see the Pierre news on the ESPN website (I'm an insider). However, if Hendry gets Juan Pierre (career .730 OPS), I will begin to doubt him. We don't need a Scott Podsednik, we need someone like Brad Wilkerson. Juan Pierre rarely takes a walk, so if he goes into a slump.. WATCH OUT Chicago, our team takes another skid to the bottom of the NL Central.

But I guess it doesn't matter who the GM is (or what decisions he makes for that matter), fans will still go to games at Wrigley. The Tribune Company has been taking advantage of that for a long time.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention... Juan Pierre never had a season where his OPS touched .800 (highest was .781) GET HIM HENDRY!

[ihatenames]

I firmly disagree about brad wilkerson. I'd much rather have Juan Pierre. While its true Wilkerson takes a quite a few walks their OBP is comparable. And in my opinion a walk is never as good as a hit when OBP is similar. Add in that the cubs also desperately need speed and SB threat. Plus the last thing the cubs need is another player that strikes out 150 times a year. Pierre may not walk the most but the last several years, in fact his entire career, he has taken more walks then he has struck out.

If you haven't figured it out yet i'd much rather Pierre

[bigdgp2]

Juan Pierre's career OPS - .730
Brad Wilkerson's career OPS - .817

In my opinion, I believe strike outs are over-rated. A strike out is exactly like a fly out. Adam Dunn is a perfect example as he is one of the best all-around offensive players in baseball (.927 OPS with 168 SOs).

And about the "a walk is never as good as a hit when OBP is similar," you have to take in account that Wilkerson's OPS was .756 while Juan Pierre's OPS was a meager .680. If the rest of the Nationals team could actually get on base, Wilkerson would've been a bigger weapon in the lineup.
Also, a .326 OBP and a .351 OBP are not that similar, as a .326 is very average, almost mediocre, while a .351 is a good, but not great, OBP.

So I'll schtick with the Wilkerson side of the argument.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

Juan Pierre's career OPS - .730
Brad Wilkerson's career OPS - .817

In my opinion, I believe strike outs are over-rated. A strike out is exactly like a fly out. Adam Dunn is a perfect example as he is one of the best all-around offensive players in baseball (.927 OPS with 168 SOs).

Well i disagree with the weight you're putting on OBP. Adam Dunn is fine offensive player. He doesn't hit for much average though and strikes out a ton. He makes up for this however by hitting the crap out of the ball when he does make contact and by being a very patient hitter. Wilkerson is not even in the same league. Wilkerson just doesn't hit for enough power to make up for his lack of contact. And in the case of the cubs, he doesn't have enough power or get on base nearly enough to make up for his lack of speed and lack of contact. The cubs have a whole team of guys who can't make contact. Players slump. But If i had to choose between Wilkerson slumping of Pierre slumping i'd choose pierre.

In other words i'd rather have pierre who will put the ball in play rather than a guy who will strike out, and take a walk or two. Thats just me.

And about the "a walk is never as good as a hit when OBP is similar," you have to take in account that Wilkerson's OPS was .756 while Juan Pierre's OPS was a meager .680. If the rest of the Nationals team could actually get on base, Wilkerson would've been a bigger weapon in the lineup.
Also, a .326 OBP and a .351 OBP are not that similar, as a .326 is very average, almost mediocre, while a .351 is a good, but not great, OBP.

Pierre's Career OBP (last years was a career low) is .355. And wilkerson's is .365. While on the topic of OPS, i think it is a fine stat but it highly undervalue some players. Pierre doesn't hit for power thats not his game. He's contact hitter who will make things happen. With his speed he can force errors as well as become a distraction on the basepaths. Who on the cubs can be a sparkplug like that? Who on the cubs short of Lee puts the ball in play on a regular basis. The cubs don't need another .350 OBP guy who takes a few walks but hits for low average and strikes out a ton. The cubs need a .350 OBP guy who is going to make contact and walk a respectable 40-60 times a year and strike out likely less than that.

So I'll schtick with the Wilkerson side of the argument.

For me it is a no brainer if i had to decide for Pierre. I understand where you're coming from, but maybe we disagree with what the team's need is.

EDIT: for stat abbreviation errors

[UngratefulDead]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

For me it is a no brainer if i had to decide for Pierre. I understand where you're coming from, but maybe we disagree with what the team's need is.

I don't have six hours free, so I won't get into the OBP vs. contact debate, but I would just like to point something out about Wilkerson's perceived lack of power. RFK Stadium is, by all accounts, one of the most pitching unfriendly parks around, and Wilkerson is one year removed from nearly a .500 slugging percentage. I'd put my money on last season being a fluke rather than the previous three steadily improving ones, and a good share of those career-high 42 doubles will probably turn to homers in the Friendly Confines.

I'm not saying I want the Cubs to get him (I want the Giants to get him!), but IMO he's an easy pick over Juan Pierre. Pierre is also a pretty overrated defender at center, IIRC, and doesn't have the arm to play the corners.

[ihatenames]

Well when going over the lack of power i did take into account RFK. I wouldn't mind having Him to replace Burnitz in right. And in that case i feel it would be an upgrade. But i feel that the cubs need a guy with a little speed and a for once a guy who walks more than he strikes out.

The outfield in wrigley is not large so a strong arm is not as important as say down in miami. And i agree his defense is overrated.

I feel he be no better than Sammy Sosa of 2004 at best(which is rather good), however I feel the cubs need to move away from the hack hitters and get one guy who can add a little small ball into the club and perhaps add a bit of spark to an at times dead offense.

Juan Pierre is probably not my first choice, but the market is thin, and he'll be cheaper than say Johnny Damon. I just don't think Wilkerson would be a good fit with his approach to the plate.

[NCBeachBum]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

I don't see the Pierre news on the ESPN website (I'm an insider). However, if Hendry gets Juan Pierre (career .730 OPS), I will begin to doubt him.

Actually, I heard it on ESPN Radio. I believe the guy's name was Levine, but it wasn't Al.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

I don't have six hours free, so I won't get into the OBP vs. contact debate

Possible dola,
To save you the trouble, there really isn't a debate there. Both players have similar OBP. A difference of .010 career. The debate is how they achieve that OBP. Pierre hits for high average, walks more than he strikes out, but doesn't walk a ton, and hits for low SLG. Wilkerson hits for for average at best AVG, decent SLG, strikes out a ton, but draws a good number of walks.

So it all depends on your preference and in my case where i feel the team's need is. And i figure there is a lot of guys like Wilkerson if we need one. But there is not a whole lot of guys in the mold of Pierre.

[bigdgp2]

Cubs in 2005 ranked 1st in hits in the NL but 11th (NL again) in team OBP. I think we found the problem... a lack of runs (9th). The problem isn't hitting the ball (.269 team AVG), the problem is that we don't have guys that will get on base.

Also, their OBPs may compare career wise, but if Juan Pierre struggles to get a hit, his OBP plummets.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

Cubs in 2005 ranked 1st in hits in the NL but 11th (NL again) in team OBP. I think we found the problem... a lack of runs (9th). The problem isn't hitting the ball (.269 team AVG), the problem is that we don't have guys that will get on base.

Also, their OBPs may compare career wise, but if Juan Pierre struggles to get a hit, his OBP plummets.

True, I don't disagree there. Both Pierre and Wilkerson have a similar career OBP. So that really isn't an issue for me. I don't really want to get into slumps, i believe firmly all slumps even themselves out. So i don't really feel the need to discuss it. At the end of the day they'll both likely hit their career averages.

From watching the team last year, the team didn't move runners over, they were a strictly station to station team. I feel the team has enough power hitter to score runs. So i believe a guy like pierre who can steal bases and make solid contact would increase the amount of runs scored and become a nice spark. Wilkerson would get on base maybe a bit more but would strike out a lot. But i'm sick of seeing strike out kings in chicago.


EDIT: I'm going to duck out of this argument for now as its moot. We'll just have to agree to disgree. And in a way i'm kind of hoping he hendry does screw up the team, as i'd like to see both hendry and dusty gone. I'm not a fan of how the team has taken shape the last few years.

[bigdgp2]

News from ProSportsDaily.com --

Cubs, Sox both interested in lefty Scott Eyre according to Eyre's agent Tommy Tanzer

[NCBeachBum]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

News from ProSportsDaily.com --

Cubs, Sox both interested in lefty Scott Eyre according to Eyre's agent Tommy Tanzer

Is it me, or do the two Chicago teams always seem to sign an inordinantly high number of each other's ex-players?

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

Both Pierre and Wilkerson have a similar career OBP.

Not really. Pierre had .355 in a .348 environment, while Wilkerson had .365 at a .342 environment, according to Baseball-Reference. So if they played in the same environment, that would be a .015 difference.

If you want to insist Pierre isn't that bad since he got on base more on hits than walks, why are you ignoring that Pierre is only getting on base with singles, while Wilkerson got twice the doubles and ten times the homeruns?

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

I'm going to duck out of this argument for now as its moot. We'll just have to agree to disgree.

Agree to disagree? I would agree that your accessments are wrong.

[UngratefulDead]

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

News from ProSportsDaily.com --

Cubs, Sox both interested in lefty Scott Eyre according to Eyre's agent Tommy Tanzer

According to Eyre's agent (not saying it isn't true, either), thirty teams have expressed interest in Eyre.

[NCBeachBum]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Agree to disagree? I would agree that your accessments are wrong.

I'll agree you misspelled assessments.