is this trade fair?

chriskelly · 07-11-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm playing solo, w/ the install all rosters (are these Halofans?) It is 2006, near AL break. I am 4th in division, but only 3 games out of wildcard. I try to limit myselves to 3 trades per year that I initiate, and then I will accept customer initiated deals if they make sense. AI is set to "favor prospects". I also try to have a team salary at max 20th highest in the league.

Here's the thing...St Louis has a guy named Pujols (rated 87/86/88/69/92) who is out for the season. I offered Ben Sheets (actual 77/76/94, talent 85/83/98) who makes $7.4M, and is close to a hugh arbitration payout (or, becoming a FA....the days of service are confusing me).

The AI will give me Pujols and a 28 yr old SP w/ 1 yr majors experiece, actual talent of 60/70/83 with potential of 77/77/97.

Question is....am I ripping off the AI? St Louis is in 1st place. On one hand, it makes sense for them to do it. On the other, it seems I am getting a hell of a deal because of the injury. What do you guys think?

MizzouRah · 07-11-2005, 04:35 PM

Sounds like the modifiers HaloFan uses as default is what's causing issues like yours. I would use the default and see if that trade is still offered.

chriskelly · 07-11-2005, 04:41 PM

I've got the defaults...devel are at 12%, aging at -25%. On the surface, it's a stud starter for an absolute stud hitter. I think the AI knows the hitter is hurt. I don't know if it cares that the pitcher is 1 year away from FA.

If the AI wants the deal because they want to win now, then I'm ok w/ doing it. but....if I've found a little glitch, that they will trade away a top 10 player because he's hurt, then I don't want to.

And...Pujols is popular and loyal....then intangibles screen even says that he tries to keep Kosher (I love the details in the game)!!

DougWyatt · 07-11-2005, 04:49 PM

Yeah, the AI frowns on long injuries. A 4 time All Star (in 4 seasons) went to FA last year in my league. He was out for 6-7 weeks. No one wanted him, and I got him for less than 1/2 of what he'd have demanded if he was healthy. Worked out great, cuz he was ready by opening day.

You are taking a risk though, cuz long term injuries can sometimes result in talent declines.

That said, I don't think you should accept customer initiated deals.

sofla97 · 07-11-2005, 04:58 PM

Are you on Normal, Hard ,Very Hard on trading? Does St Louis have a good replacement for Pujols?
Anyway the Cards are probably on Win now! They're contending and to them it makes sense to get Sheets, who always is dominant in my Halofan league, and let go of somebody that is out for the season. Beware- I've noticed that players who sit out all season take a hit on ratings.
Do I think you're ripping off the A/I? No - You're giving up a top pitcher for a top hitter that may or may not come back with the same skill level and a pretty decent pitcher.

chriskelly · 07-11-2005, 05:02 PM

sorry....I'm on very hard trading, St L. is on win now. Long term, they had no great replacement for Pujols.

I did the deal...then got the emails....my fans pissed that I traded a popular player. then, happy that I got one.

sofla97 · 07-11-2005, 05:07 PM

Good luck. Let us know how this turns out. I'm curious how the Cards do with Sheets and if Pujols comes back strong.

MizzouRah · 07-11-2005, 11:28 PM

I know IRL if the Cardinals did that... talk radio would be rather interesting.

Not in a million years...

Vizquel13 · 07-12-2005, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chriskelly

The AI will give me Pujols and a 28 yr old SP w/ 1 yr majors experiece, actual talent of 60/70/83 with potential of 77/77/97.

Question is....am I ripping off the AI? St Louis is in 1st place. On one hand, it makes sense for them to do it. On the other, it seems I am getting a hell of a deal because of the injury. What do you guys think?

You aren't deep in terms of years yet, so just think about it this way...if this deal was proposed this coming offseason IRL and you were Walt Jocketty, would you take it? I find it hard to believe Jocketty would give up Pujols for Sheets straight up, much less throwing in a good starter AND not having a replacement for Pujols.

I still haven't seen a fair computer proposed deal in many seasons in my solo leagues. I play with house rules of "Is this a reasonable deal IRL?" I don't make any deals that aren't fair IRL. The AI often proposes deals where they are getting raped. Heck, I got offered Lance Berkman for Ben Broussard and two average prospects the other day, and I had to turn it down (much as that sucked) because it was so outrageous. It really depends on what rules you put in place for yourself, but if it was me, I wouldn't do the deal because it just seems like a complete ripoff of St. Louis.

Kos

randomlefty10 · 07-12-2005, 03:51 AM

I don't think that's a fair comparison, because the key elements at play are the long term injury and the win now status. What about say the Dodgers trading JD Drew for Jason Marquis because DePo is under a lot of pressure to win this year after the roster moves of last season? Would that be unbelievable?

Fact is, comp. AI always rates pitchers higher than batters, as do actual GMs (hello Kris Benson, Eric Milton, Jaret Wright) so I think it's a fair enough deal.

Skywalker76 · 07-12-2005, 03:53 AM

Real life consists of so many bad trades, Vizquel13.

Just take the trade of top prospect SP Danny Bautista from the Orioles to the Royals for 39 year old reliever Grimsley in 2004. Was that a bad trade ? Yes. Was that real life ? Yes.

If you play without ratings, talents and stars you get a lot of trades in which you think you ripped the AI when you realize later on that these spects you got where total busts. There's too much ratings, talents and names stuff going on in most solo and online leagues to make trading in OOTP even close to being realistic.

Vizquel13 · 07-12-2005, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skywalker76

Real life consists of so many bad trades, Vizquel13.

Just take the trade of top prospect SP Danny Bautista from the Orioles to the Royals for 39 year old reliever Grimsley in 2004. Was that a bad trade ? Yes. Was that real life ? Yes.

If you play without ratings, talents and stars you get a lot of trades in which you think you ripped the AI when you realize later on that these spects you got where total busts. There's too much ratings, talents and names stuff going on in most solo and online leagues to make trading in OOTP even close to being realistic.

There are plenty lopsided trades, but you don't often see an ace pitcher dealt for a HoF hitter AND another good pitcher, espeically when there is no replacement. Also, who do the Cardinals have on their staff? Do they need another starter? When the AI proposed Berkman for Broussard to me, they had Bagwell at first base. Sure, he's old, but that's not a deal they would even consider IRL.

I could see Pujols for Sheets. With the risk involved with Pujols, it could at least be considered okay, but if it was me, I'd at least look into dealing the guy on my team Pujols would replace to the Cardinals. That doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

Kos

abailey3313 · 07-12-2005, 10:05 AM

On some level I guess that's a fair trade. Granted, if Pujols is healthy it's a bit of a different story.

This scenario is the reason why I try to avoid dealing for big time players in solo leagues. After the deal is done, I always get the feeling that I ripped off the AI or somehow smacked realism in the face. Usually, I just avoid trades like these all together.

MizzouRah · 07-12-2005, 12:27 PM

Those trades really don't bother me in a game though. We're missing the human element here and lots of factors GM's make in a deal like that. I'm sure ootp only uses a few criteria when evaluating a trade.

ChuckB · 07-12-2005, 12:42 PM

In real life this would never happen. Why?

Because in MLB you can't trade a player who's on the DL.

That's something that Markus should toggle on/off if he can for the next version. It's a simple thing that can really add to the realism.

Also, Im in the opposite boat from whomever said that the AI offers up trades that would screw them. I get the "I'll trade you my 2* overpaid crappy centerfielder for your 5* cant miss AAA reliever" all the time. Of course, they always throw in one of my 1* prospects just to "even" it out, as if 2* centerfielders aren't a dime a dozen and 5* relievers are.

chriskelly · 07-12-2005, 05:07 PM

An excellent point by ChuckB (who I loved with Public Enemy). The deal cant' occur in real life.

Some status....Sheets did great for St L over the 2nd half, and went on to lead the NL in ERA. They finished 2nd in the division. They had a DH fill in at 1B for Pujols...hit well, but is out of position defensively. The SP that I got back turned out to get demoted and have an ERA over 5.

To me, the real question, even for 'win now' teams, is does the AI understand the financial impact of signing young, sollid players who are coming up on their deal end date. I know that the AI knows they have are already solid and have potential and that their current salary is low. but...does it understand that a lot of these guys will only be with them for a year or so before testing the market?

07-11-2005, 04:25 PM	#1
chriskelly All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 753	is this trade fair? I'm playing solo, w/ the install all rosters (are these Halofans?) It is 2006, near AL break. I am 4th in division, but only 3 games out of wildcard. I try to limit myselves to 3 trades per year that I initiate, and then I will accept customer initiated deals if they make sense. AI is set to "favor prospects". I also try to have a team salary at max 20th highest in the league. Here's the thing...St Louis has a guy named Pujols (rated 87/86/88/69/92) who is out for the season. I offered Ben Sheets (actual 77/76/94, talent 85/83/98) who makes $7.4M, and is close to a hugh arbitration payout (or, becoming a FA....the days of service are confusing me). The AI will give me Pujols and a 28 yr old SP w/ 1 yr majors experiece, actual talent of 60/70/83 with potential of 77/77/97. Question is....am I ripping off the AI? St Louis is in 1st place. On one hand, it makes sense for them to do it. On the other, it seems I am getting a hell of a deal because of the injury. What do you guys think?

07-12-2005, 10:05 AM	#13
abailey3313 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,718	On some level I guess that's a fair trade. Granted, if Pujols is healthy it's a bit of a different story. This scenario is the reason why I try to avoid dealing for big time players in solo leagues. After the deal is done, I always get the feeling that I ripped off the AI or somehow smacked realism in the face. Usually, I just avoid trades like these all together. __________________

07-11-2005, 04:35 PM	#2
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	Sounds like the modifiers HaloFan uses as default is what's causing issues like yours. I would use the default and see if that trade is still offered.

07-11-2005, 04:41 PM	#3
chriskelly All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 753	I've got the defaults...devel are at 12%, aging at -25%. On the surface, it's a stud starter for an absolute stud hitter. I think the AI knows the hitter is hurt. I don't know if it cares that the pitcher is 1 year away from FA. If the AI wants the deal because they want to win now, then I'm ok w/ doing it. but....if I've found a little glitch, that they will trade away a top 10 player because he's hurt, then I don't want to. And...Pujols is popular and loyal....then intangibles screen even says that he tries to keep Kosher (I love the details in the game)!!

07-11-2005, 04:49 PM	#4
DougWyatt All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,117	Yeah, the AI frowns on long injuries. A 4 time All Star (in 4 seasons) went to FA last year in my league. He was out for 6-7 weeks. No one wanted him, and I got him for less than 1/2 of what he'd have demanded if he was healthy. Worked out great, cuz he was ready by opening day. You are taking a risk though, cuz long term injuries can sometimes result in talent declines. That said, I don't think you should accept customer initiated deals.

07-11-2005, 04:58 PM	#5
sofla97 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 169	Are you on Normal, Hard ,Very Hard on trading? Does St Louis have a good replacement for Pujols? Anyway the Cards are probably on Win now! They're contending and to them it makes sense to get Sheets, who always is dominant in my Halofan league, and let go of somebody that is out for the season. Beware- I've noticed that players who sit out all season take a hit on ratings. Do I think you're ripping off the A/I? No - You're giving up a top pitcher for a top hitter that may or may not come back with the same skill level and a pretty decent pitcher.

07-11-2005, 05:02 PM	#6
chriskelly All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 753	sorry....I'm on very hard trading, St L. is on win now. Long term, they had no great replacement for Pujols. I did the deal...then got the emails....my fans pissed that I traded a popular player. then, happy that I got one.

07-11-2005, 05:07 PM	#7
sofla97 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 169	Good luck. Let us know how this turns out. I'm curious how the Cards do with Sheets and if Pujols comes back strong.

07-11-2005, 11:28 PM	#8
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	I know IRL if the Cardinals did that... talk radio would be rather interesting. Not in a million years...

07-12-2005, 03:51 AM	#10
randomlefty10 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 1,438	I don't think that's a fair comparison, because the key elements at play are the long term injury and the win now status. What about say the Dodgers trading JD Drew for Jason Marquis because DePo is under a lot of pressure to win this year after the roster moves of last season? Would that be unbelievable? Fact is, comp. AI always rates pitchers higher than batters, as do actual GMs (hello Kris Benson, Eric Milton, Jaret Wright) so I think it's a fair enough deal.

07-12-2005, 03:53 AM	#11
Skywalker76 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miami Posts: 833	Real life consists of so many bad trades, Vizquel13. Just take the trade of top prospect SP Danny Bautista from the Orioles to the Royals for 39 year old reliever Grimsley in 2004. Was that a bad trade ? Yes. Was that real life ? Yes. If you play without ratings, talents and stars you get a lot of trades in which you think you ripped the AI when you realize later on that these spects you got where total busts. There's too much ratings, talents and names stuff going on in most solo and online leagues to make trading in OOTP even close to being realistic.

07-12-2005, 12:27 PM	#14
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	Those trades really don't bother me in a game though. We're missing the human element here and lots of factors GM's make in a deal like that. I'm sure ootp only uses a few criteria when evaluating a trade.

07-12-2005, 12:42 PM	#15
ChuckB Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 67	In real life this would never happen. Why? Because in MLB you can't trade a player who's on the DL. That's something that Markus should toggle on/off if he can for the next version. It's a simple thing that can really add to the realism. Also, Im in the opposite boat from whomever said that the AI offers up trades that would screw them. I get the "I'll trade you my 2* overpaid crappy centerfielder for your 5* cant miss AAA reliever" all the time. Of course, they always throw in one of my 1* prospects just to "even" it out, as if 2* centerfielders aren't a dime a dozen and 5* relievers are.

07-12-2005, 05:07 PM	#16
chriskelly All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 753	An excellent point by ChuckB (who I loved with Public Enemy). The deal cant' occur in real life. Some status....Sheets did great for St L over the 2nd half, and went on to lead the NL in ERA. They finished 2nd in the division. They had a DH fill in at 1B for Pujols...hit well, but is out of position defensively. The SP that I got back turned out to get demoted and have an ERA over 5. To me, the real question, even for 'win now' teams, is does the AI understand the financial impact of signing young, sollid players who are coming up on their deal end date. I know that the AI knows they have are already solid and have potential and that their current salary is low. but...does it understand that a lot of these guys will only be with them for a year or so before testing the market?