The Boston Red Sox Hot Stove Reports - Page 21

Splitter24 · 07-07-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxWin

What in the hell???

He better bring back a bullpen arm or a prospect good enough to flip for an arm. What the hell is Theo smoking?

Jay Payton has been grumbling for a while about wanting to be a starter or to be traded to somewhere where he can start full time. You really don't want someone like that around to mess with whatever team chemistry you have.

Also, I heard Theo interviewed this afternoon on my way home that the Red Sox have also made another deal that won't be official until after the All Star break. He said it's something he's been working on for a while. Maybe he's already found a new home for Payton?

Joshv02 · 07-08-2005, 09:52 AM

ProJo is reporting that Payton will be traded to the A's for Chad Bradford, who is currently rehabbing from back surgery. I assume we will give some cash received from SD to complete the deal, if it happens.

draven085 · 07-08-2005, 09:59 AM

I'm not as enamored with Bradford as a lot of people are but he's a pretty decent pickup for a player who was DFA'd because of a run-in with the manager. Despite having a pretty severe split he has a track record of effectiveness. I imagine he'll be hurt somewhat by the move from the pitcher friendly coliseum to the Fens but it's still not a bad haul. Does this mean the A's are moving Kotsay?

Green & Gold Heart · 07-08-2005, 11:42 AM

Bradford can be great if he is used correctly. And I hope this means the A's are moving Byrnes, not Kotsay!

Joshv02 · 07-08-2005, 11:55 AM

I'm scared of his back -- that delivery has to KILL his back. I like how he is a two year pick up, though, and his arb number won't be higher than $1.4 (and may be $1.4 - 20% next year).

So long as Byrnes isn't moving our way, I'm happy!

Teddyballgame · 07-08-2005, 02:07 PM

Part of the issue with Payton was a huge fight he got into with Francona after they beat the Rangers the other night. He was replaced, lost a potential at bat and got into it with both Francona and Mills. After the game, Tito basically told him to go **** himself and he wasn't going to Baltimore with the team.

Teddyballgame · 07-08-2005, 02:09 PM

dola,

another funny story. Damon's been all over the place talking about how Timlin should be the closer and not Schilling. The day after a quote saying that ran in the Globe, Damon walked into the clubhouse and the reporters heard Francona yell "Hey dumbass, get in here." from his office.

Good stuff.

SoxWin · 07-08-2005, 03:23 PM

Yeah, I heard all that after I posted here Teddy. ****ing Jesus should shut his goddamn pie hole and stick to playing ball.

SoxWin · 07-08-2005, 08:12 PM

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...at_for_rogers/

Wells was outspoken in his support of Clement. ''I don't want to vent, but I guess I can, I'm on my way out," he said. ''I think he got slapped in the face on that one."

What the hell does this mean?

Wells to San Diego for a pen arm? This weeks Sports Weekly mentioned the Padres had approached the Sox about Wells but were turned down. Is something up?

rem · 07-08-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Also, I heard Theo interviewed this afternoon on my way home that the Red Sox have also made another deal that won't be official until after the All Star break. He said it's something he's been working on for a while. Maybe he's already found a new home for Payton?

If I were to wildy speculate, I'd say it's Mike Sweeney.

SoxWin · 07-08-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

If I were to wildy speculate, I'd say it's Mike Sweeney.

If you're to believe everything you read, it's basically a done deal. Payton for Bradford.

rem · 07-08-2005, 08:47 PM

oh, I didn't mean that Payton was going to be dealt for Sweeney. Just that I'd infer from what the other dude wrote that Mike Sweeney was the likely target.

darkhorse · 07-08-2005, 08:54 PM

John Erhardt chimed in on Payton and the Red Sox today at BB Pro.

Between the time Friday's Prospectus Notebook went live and late last night, all 27 card-carrying members of the Chip Ambres fan club had emailed to tell me I neglected to mention him in the discussion of Red Sox outfield depth. Which is true.

Having taught at two universities, I can recognize lousy excuses when I see them. Here's mine. I cut the paragraph mentioning Ambres for two reasons: one, it was boring, and two, Ambres wasn't a serious option three months ago, and ~250 good ABs doesn't really change that, International League All-Star status or not. Of course, the fact that Ambres is even in the discussion at all supported the earlier point in last Friday's piece, which is that the Sox had no outfield depth this offseason; that the seemingly best major-league-ready option in Triple-A at the moment was picked up as a minor league free agent speaks volumes about the system as it existed this winter.

Prior to this season, Ambres was a .253/.358/.420 hitter (in 2282 career minor league ABs, mostly in A-ball). This season, he's hitting .302/.411/.516 in 252 ABs at Triple-A Pawtucket. Ambres illustrates the difficulty when dealing with young (or relatively young) players, as it's awfully easy to confuse "performance spike" with "development." Based on the Triple-A line alone, he'd be certainly adequate, and probably not any worse than Jay Payton. He's unlikely to get a shot, though, and that's not being prescriptive; recent events in Boston indicate the front-office doesn't see him as anything more than an insurance policy for alien abduction of the entire outfield, or some other unlikely event.

Swapping Ambres in for Payton isn't as easy as replacing one proven league-average offensive player with a potentially-league-average one, though. Payton's job description had two parts:

1. Platoon with Trot Nixon in right
2. Be a defensive sub at all three positions

Payton was a good, if declining, defensive player; other than watching a single Pawtucket game on NESN, I have no defensive information on Ambres. It's entirely possible that his recent leg injuries have made him less of an outfielder than we'd like (his SB success suggests otherwise, though speed doesn't always equal range). The Sox have elected to DFA Payton, and called up Adam Stern in his place who, as a Rule Ver, had to be placed on the 25 man roster soon. Stern bats lefty, though, and is only able to do half of what Payton was expected to do. All of Red Sox nation is expecting an additional roster move at this point—Stern is a nice defensive sub and pinch-runner, but in a roster loaded with so many 3B/1B/DH types (including one already in the outfield), the Sox' fourth outfielder needs to technically be both a fourth and fifth outfielder. Stern isn't.

According the Boston Globe, Payton is headed to Oakland in exchange for Chad Bradford. That same story indicates that Stern shouldn't unpack his things, as Boston's trying to get Gabe Kapler back from Japan, where he's been playing all season. Kapler would need to out-Payton Payton in both the above roles, which recent history suggests he might not be able to do (.272/.311/.390 in 2004, a .240 EqA). It's not clear how that's much of an upgrade over Payton; PECOTA agreed, pegging Kapler for a weighted-mean line of .267/.318/.391 with a .249 EqA this year as a part-timer, well below even Payton's modest .261 EqA.

The earlier discussion could be presented as "is Ambres a better option than Payton?" and the answer was apparently "no." The discussion now becomes "why isn't Ambres a better option than Kapler?" Kapler's defensive stats have hovered around competency ever since he left Detroit (with a very bizarre 21 FRAR2 season as Texas' centerfielder thrown in there), and so if the Sox are going to settle for replacement-level defense from their bench (a significant downgrade from Payton), why not get a little more offense than a .240-ish EqA? Ambres is a better candidate for that.

But until the Payton trade is finalized, and until the Kapler rumor gets dismissed or confirmed, we simply don't know what the roster will look like. Both Ambres and Stern are fine options now, but neither work as a straight-replacement for Payton.

QuestGAV · 07-09-2005, 12:12 AM

What Erhardt doesn't seem to address is the possibility of adding another guy who doesn't suck to a hurting bullpen in exchange for that slight but clear downgrade to the team's bench. I don't mind having my 4th outfielder suck a bit if A) he shuts his mouth and B) it helps win more games because you've shifted resources to a bigger weakness.

darkhorse · 07-11-2005, 11:51 PM

This one goes on the shopping list.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...270911-9675045

07-08-2005, 09:52 AM	#402
Joshv02 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: , " Posts: 3,082	ProJo is reporting that Payton will be traded to the A's for Chad Bradford, who is currently rehabbing from back surgery. I assume we will give some cash received from SD to complete the deal, if it happens. __________________ Brookline Maccabees. RIP

07-08-2005, 11:55 AM	#405
Joshv02 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: , " Posts: 3,082	I'm scared of his back -- that delivery has to KILL his back. I like how he is a two year pick up, though, and his arb number won't be higher than $1.4 (and may be $1.4 - 20% next year). So long as Byrnes isn't moving our way, I'm happy! __________________ Brookline Maccabees. RIP

07-08-2005, 02:07 PM	#406
Teddyballgame Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 332	Part of the issue with Payton was a huge fight he got into with Francona after they beat the Rangers the other night. He was replaced, lost a potential at bat and got into it with both Francona and Mills. After the game, Tito basically told him to go **** himself and he wasn't going to Baltimore with the team. __________________ The roads in America are paved with cheese

07-08-2005, 02:09 PM	#407
Teddyballgame Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 332	dola, another funny story. Damon's been all over the place talking about how Timlin should be the closer and not Schilling. The day after a quote saying that ran in the Globe, Damon walked into the clubhouse and the reporters heard Francona yell "Hey dumbass, get in here." from his office. Good stuff. __________________ The roads in America are paved with cheese

07-08-2005, 03:23 PM	#408
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	Yeah, I heard all that after I posted here Teddy. **ing Jesus should shut his goddamn pie hole and stick to playing ball. __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. **ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

07-08-2005, 09:59 AM	#403
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	I'm not as enamored with Bradford as a lot of people are but he's a pretty decent pickup for a player who was DFA'd because of a run-in with the manager. Despite having a pretty severe split he has a track record of effectiveness. I imagine he'll be hurt somewhat by the move from the pitcher friendly coliseum to the Fens but it's still not a bad haul. Does this mean the A's are moving Kotsay?

07-08-2005, 11:42 AM	#404
Green & Gold Heart Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,242	Bradford can be great if he is used correctly. And I hope this means the A's are moving Byrnes, not Kotsay!

07-08-2005, 08:12 PM	#409
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...at_for_rogers/ Wells was outspoken in his support of Clement. ''I don't want to vent, but I guess I can, I'm on my way out," he said. ''I think he got slapped in the face on that one." What the hell does this mean? Wells to San Diego for a pen arm? This weeks Sports Weekly mentioned the Padres had approached the Sox about Wells but were turned down. Is something up? __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

07-08-2005, 08:47 PM	#412
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	oh, I didn't mean that Payton was going to be dealt for Sweeney. Just that I'd infer from what the other dude wrote that Mike Sweeney was the likely target. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

07-08-2005, 08:54 PM	#413
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	John Erhardt chimed in on Payton and the Red Sox today at BB Pro. Between the time Friday's Prospectus Notebook went live and late last night, all 27 card-carrying members of the Chip Ambres fan club had emailed to tell me I neglected to mention him in the discussion of Red Sox outfield depth. Which is true. Having taught at two universities, I can recognize lousy excuses when I see them. Here's mine. I cut the paragraph mentioning Ambres for two reasons: one, it was boring, and two, Ambres wasn't a serious option three months ago, and ~250 good ABs doesn't really change that, International League All-Star status or not. Of course, the fact that Ambres is even in the discussion at all supported the earlier point in last Friday's piece, which is that the Sox had no outfield depth this offseason; that the seemingly best major-league-ready option in Triple-A at the moment was picked up as a minor league free agent speaks volumes about the system as it existed this winter. Prior to this season, Ambres was a .253/.358/.420 hitter (in 2282 career minor league ABs, mostly in A-ball). This season, he's hitting .302/.411/.516 in 252 ABs at Triple-A Pawtucket. Ambres illustrates the difficulty when dealing with young (or relatively young) players, as it's awfully easy to confuse "performance spike" with "development." Based on the Triple-A line alone, he'd be certainly adequate, and probably not any worse than Jay Payton. He's unlikely to get a shot, though, and that's not being prescriptive; recent events in Boston indicate the front-office doesn't see him as anything more than an insurance policy for alien abduction of the entire outfield, or some other unlikely event. Swapping Ambres in for Payton isn't as easy as replacing one proven league-average offensive player with a potentially-league-average one, though. Payton's job description had two parts: 1. Platoon with Trot Nixon in right 2. Be a defensive sub at all three positions Payton was a good, if declining, defensive player; other than watching a single Pawtucket game on NESN, I have no defensive information on Ambres. It's entirely possible that his recent leg injuries have made him less of an outfielder than we'd like (his SB success suggests otherwise, though speed doesn't always equal range). The Sox have elected to DFA Payton, and called up Adam Stern in his place who, as a Rule Ver, had to be placed on the 25 man roster soon. Stern bats lefty, though, and is only able to do half of what Payton was expected to do. All of Red Sox nation is expecting an additional roster move at this point—Stern is a nice defensive sub and pinch-runner, but in a roster loaded with so many 3B/1B/DH types (including one already in the outfield), the Sox' fourth outfielder needs to technically be both a fourth and fifth outfielder. Stern isn't. According the Boston Globe, Payton is headed to Oakland in exchange for Chad Bradford. That same story indicates that Stern shouldn't unpack his things, as Boston's trying to get Gabe Kapler back from Japan, where he's been playing all season. Kapler would need to out-Payton Payton in both the above roles, which recent history suggests he might not be able to do (.272/.311/.390 in 2004, a .240 EqA). It's not clear how that's much of an upgrade over Payton; PECOTA agreed, pegging Kapler for a weighted-mean line of .267/.318/.391 with a .249 EqA this year as a part-timer, well below even Payton's modest .261 EqA. The earlier discussion could be presented as "is Ambres a better option than Payton?" and the answer was apparently "no." The discussion now becomes "why isn't Ambres a better option than Kapler?" Kapler's defensive stats have hovered around competency ever since he left Detroit (with a very bizarre 21 FRAR2 season as Texas' centerfielder thrown in there), and so if the Sox are going to settle for replacement-level defense from their bench (a significant downgrade from Payton), why not get a little more offense than a .240-ish EqA? Ambres is a better candidate for that. But until the Payton trade is finalized, and until the Kapler rumor gets dismissed or confirmed, we simply don't know what the roster will look like. Both Ambres and Stern are fine options now, but neither work as a straight-replacement for Payton. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

07-09-2005, 12:12 AM	#414
QuestGAV Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,008	What Erhardt doesn't seem to address is the possibility of adding another guy who doesn't suck to a hurting bullpen in exchange for that slight but clear downgrade to the team's bench. I don't mind having my 4th outfielder suck a bit if A) he shuts his mouth and B) it helps win more games because you've shifted resources to a bigger weakness.

07-11-2005, 11:51 PM	#415
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	This one goes on the shopping list. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...270911-9675045 __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."