Ali

Marciano6 · 06-28-2005, 01:56 AM

I never really took much liking to him seein as he was cocky an sometimes annoyin. After studyin some of his fight tapes however i put my feelins aside for Ali the man and began to appreciate Ali the fighter. I loved the way he could slip a punch an then fire back almost instantly, he truly was great.

JohnnyBench · 06-28-2005, 07:37 AM

I have seen quite a few of his fights on ESPN Classic recently. I feel the same as you. He has never quite been my "favorite." BUT his ring skills were top notch. The way he was always able to slip in punches while his opponents agressively pursued him was amazing.

His taunting before AND during the bouts truly made him one that people either loved or loved to hate.

It had to be frustrating to box a man that spent 85% of the bout leaning on the ropes, yet still landed punches so effectively. I watched one of the Ali - Foreman bouts the other day. Big George pounded away but landed very few solid punches, yet often and it seemed almost at will, Ali landed jabs and hooks that George just couldn't stop.

No doubt, like him as a man or not, he was one of the greatest.

rdklein · 06-28-2005, 08:26 AM

What amazes me watching all his replay bouts (besides all the obvious characteristics he is known for... i.e. handspeed, footwork, ring savy) was his amazing ability to take a punch. I've seen him many times seemingly get clocked, punches where I would be like, "Damn! How the hell did he stay up after that shot?". They never seemed to even phase him. He just kept on fighting.

I guess, when it was all said and done, all those hard punches did take a pretty heavy toll on the man.

Claybor · 06-28-2005, 02:20 PM

I dont agree at all. I watched him recently against Chuck Wepner, and I thought his tactics were assinine. He backed up against the ropes and let Wepner hit him for over 2 minutes each round, then through a flurry of punches. I will admit that all his punches landed for the last 30 secs of each round, but based on his tactics I think he LOST the fight. I dont care for a fighter who is all flash. Yes he had the capability of being the best ever, but he was such a conceited ass that he definatley was not in my opinion. To me this ass Ali is one of the main reasons that sports today have become sad. It's all about mouth and hype, and that was Ali, mouth and hype. He was definatley one of the best heavyweights ever, but his actions and attitude were sickening and I personally find him to be the most deplorable sports figure throughout the history of sports. I know I will get slammed by all the Ali lovers out there, but with his media hype even today I guess thats to be expected.

CONN CHRIS · 06-28-2005, 02:38 PM

I have a huge double standard and I am not sure why. I loved Ali, swagger and all. Similar nonsense from some of today's fighters really turns me off though. Maybe I'm just getting to be a cranky old man.

Christopher

Brooks TVB · 06-28-2005, 03:05 PM

Ali was a tremendous fighter. He was atleast top 5 all time.

Being a great fighter is not enough. A person in their position, like it or not, is a role model. Being a role model brings a lot of responsibility, almost as much as being a parent. I just don't feel you can live a life like Ali, Bryant, or Mayweather and be a good one.

Now to get back on topic: Ali could really take a punch and had some great ring intelligence. I personally feel he should have used his boxing skills a little more and did a lot less rope a dope.

jrftbl56 · 06-28-2005, 03:31 PM

Ali was the greatest fighter of all-time there was never anyone faster or smarter in the ring the man he was developing into right before he was exiled from the world of boxing also had grown into a good puncher as he was knocking out more punches he lost the best 3 years of his life and still was the greatest fighter of all-time.

LeeSkye · 06-28-2005, 03:41 PM

I think the difference for Ali was that, to most people, Ali was a very likeable guy. His antics and showmanship were to hype the gates and not because of him being an ass. It was a totally different time and the media was not as pervasive as today. TV was still a relativley new medium into the 60's. Ali was totally "fresh" at the time and there were few people who really took him for being an "ass". I'm not sure if he could do the same today if he were just starting out but his antics for the times were "new" and entertaining and boxing was put front stage. Ali took a lot of his act from Gorgeous George the wrestler. Gorgeous George was a darling of the early television world and it is said his "act" sold more TV's in the 50's than any other. He had golden wavy hair, wore long fur collered robes and threw gold bobby pins out to the audience as he strolled to the ring. The women went crazy for him and wrestling grew in stature. I can still remember my grandmother loving wrestling and especially "my George"! If you took either Ali or George out of their times I don't imagine they would look any different than a 1000 other "acts" today.

Ronnie · 06-28-2005, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeSkye

I think the difference for Ali was that, to most people, Ali was a very likeable guy. His antics and showmanship were to hype the gates and not because of him being an ass. It was a totally different time and the media was not as pervasive as today. TV was still a relativley new medium into the 60's. Ali was totally "fresh" at the time and there were few people who really took him for being an "ass". I'm not sure if he could do the same today if he were just starting out but his antics for the times were "new" and entertaining and boxing was put front stage. Ali took a lot of his act from Gorgeous George the wrestler. Gorgeous George was a darling of the early television world and it is said his "act" sold more TV's in the 50's than any other. He had golden wavy hair, wore long fur collered robes and threw gold bobby pins out to the audience as he strolled to the ring. The women went crazy for him and wrestling grew in stature. I can still remember my grandmother loving wrestling and especially "my George"! If you took either Ali or George out of their times I don't imagine they would look any different than a 1000 other "acts" today.

Totally agree.

Also I saw Ali in my early teens which I always maintain are the most impressionale years of your life. When you think back the best rock/pop groups you remember are usually the ones you listened to as a teenager.

As far as I'm concerned Ali was the greatest. His self hype probably had a lot to do with it, but I for one was and still is sold.

Non Compos Mentis · 06-29-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

Being a great fighter is not enough. A person in their position, like it or not, is a role model. Being a role model brings a lot of responsibility, almost as much as being a parent. I just don't feel you can live a life like Ali, Bryant, or Mayweather and be a good one.

You do realize that Ali was a role-model for blacks in that era (and today) in the United State's history? He showed that you can be black and be proud of who you are and your accomplishments. To listen to a black person speak as he did, back then, was virtually unthinkable.

Brooks TVB · 06-29-2005, 01:59 PM

I persoanlly wasn't looking at it like that. I am just looking at the fact that he is an athlete(whom all races) look at as a role model.

Claybor · 06-29-2005, 02:13 PM

I think that Ali as a role model is the problem. First off he was of course a coward and a draft dodger. He was also very much a racist during his career, and believed that folks of different races should not mix. He was a load mouth with little or no respect for anyone else in his line of work. He was the epitome of bad sportsmanship with his trash talking before during and after fights. If this is the "role model" folks want for young impressionable people, then so be it. I think it also is a reflection on athletes today, who are nothing more then overgrown children with no respect for themselves or anyone around them.

CONN CHRIS · 06-29-2005, 02:51 PM

Calling Ali a draft dodger is a statement of fact I guess. But, "coward" is harsh. In hindsight it would have been easier for him to do his hitch and get out rather than object: He probably would have pulled Elvis-like duty while in the Army. He didn't run away like some did; the term coward seems out-of-place.

Christopher

Claybor · 06-29-2005, 03:40 PM

You may be correct on the "coward" remark, I just get frustrated when I hear people say this jerk was a "role model". To me he is exactly how you dont want your kids to grow up. Big mouthed, arrogant, and showing no respect for anyone else. But it is also apparent that most of the world disagrees, as today most athletes are, "big mouthed, arrogant, and have no respect for anything or anyone".

Brooks TVB · 06-29-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

I just don't feel you can live a life like Ali, Bryant, or Mayweather and be a good one.

Hope your not pointing that frustration at me Claybor.

Bam Bam · 06-29-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marciano6

I never really took much liking to him seein as he was cocky an sometimes annoyin. After studyin some of his fight tapes however i put my feelins aside for Ali the man and began to appreciate Ali the fighter. I loved the way he could slip a punch an then fire back almost instantly, he truly was great.

same here , watching him closely, he really was the greatest HW of all time. That constant movement, and nasty jab, which wasn't justa jab, it was a stinging, heavy jab, always on balance, throwing combo's at will, taking big punches without flinching, plus compared to his competition, he was quite large for a heavy weight in his time.

Claybor · 06-29-2005, 05:05 PM

I have never said he didnt have the skills, that I agree 100% with. I also agree that he was one of the best ever. It's hard to judge these guys that never fought each other, so I dont think there is a "best" ever. It will of course be debated for ever. But if I had to pick the top 5 or 10 ever, not matter how much I hate to say it, he would have to be one of them.

Marciano6 · 06-29-2005, 06:05 PM

I agree Ali wasnt the best role model he did dodge the draft, Ali was not a role model in the sense that he had huge faults but what boxer didnt?. I never liked Ali he was cocky but also showed respect when respect was due like any fighter. To say Ali was the greatest like the great Dundee said is "Bull****" we will never know if he coulda beat Louis any other fighter before or after him. Ali was great as a young black male myself I realize a lot of african Americans today claim he is the greatest without even seein him fight. They figure if my pa say he the greatest he is.

estone57 · 06-29-2005, 06:45 PM

Ali was not a draft dodger by any senses of the term. When his number came up he did not run. He took it like a man and said his religion prevented him from killing someone he did not regard his enemy. He then filed to be a conscientious objector. Which is his right by law. And eventually the supreme court ruled in his favor. I think draft dodger or coward are not only harsh names but very untrue. I do not wish to go into a religious debate but there are many christians, jewish, and any other religion you can think of conscientious objectors.

Also just IMO he was not a racist. But I can see how some would call him that. Ali was many things and some of them bad. But he was also one of the greatest boxers ever. And some still consider him to be the most recognized person world wide. Call him a showboat,vain,egotistical among many others. But a draft dodger? No.

wildhawke11 · 06-29-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claybor

I think that Ali as a role model is the problem. First off he was of course a coward and a draft dodger. He was also very much a racist during his career, and believed that folks of different races should not mix. He was a load mouth with little or no respect for anyone else in his line of work. He was the epitome of bad sportsmanship with his trash talking before during and after fights. If this is the "role model" folks want for young impressionable people, then so be it. I think it also is a reflection on athletes today, who are nothing more then overgrown children with no respect for themselves or anyone around them.

You left of the fact that Ali was also a womaniser in spite of being married. Plus i personally did not like the way he degraded people of his own race, as well as others. There is a line between building up the tension for a fight and going out of your way to degrade another human being.

As a fighter yes he has to rank with the best but as a decent human being i think his morels left a lot to be desired. His treatment of Joe Frazier was really taking it into the gutter. But as they say "what goes round comes round and Joe has the last laugh now"

06-28-2005, 01:56 AM	#1
Marciano6 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Detroit's Cass Corridor, 7 Mile Posts: 254	Ali I never really took much liking to him seein as he was cocky an sometimes annoyin. After studyin some of his fight tapes however i put my feelins aside for Ali the man and began to appreciate Ali the fighter. I loved the way he could slip a punch an then fire back almost instantly, he truly was great. __________________ The Future Is A Mystery, The Past Is History, Today Iz A Gift Thats Why Itz Called The Present.

06-28-2005, 02:38 PM	#5
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,019	I have a huge double standard and I am not sure why. I loved Ali, swagger and all. Similar nonsense from some of today's fighters really turns me off though. Maybe I'm just getting to be a cranky old man. Christopher __________________ Check Out My Cards!

06-28-2005, 03:41 PM	#8
LeeSkye All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Igloo Posts: 1,279	I think the difference for Ali was that, to most people, Ali was a very likeable guy. His antics and showmanship were to hype the gates and not because of him being an ass. It was a totally different time and the media was not as pervasive as today. TV was still a relativley new medium into the 60's. Ali was totally "fresh" at the time and there were few people who really took him for being an "ass". I'm not sure if he could do the same today if he were just starting out but his antics for the times were "new" and entertaining and boxing was put front stage. Ali took a lot of his act from Gorgeous George the wrestler. Gorgeous George was a darling of the early television world and it is said his "act" sold more TV's in the 50's than any other. He had golden wavy hair, wore long fur collered robes and threw gold bobby pins out to the audience as he strolled to the ring. The women went crazy for him and wrestling grew in stature. I can still remember my grandmother loving wrestling and especially "my George"! If you took either Ali or George out of their times I don't imagine they would look any different than a 1000 other "acts" today. __________________ What If Championship Boxing Last edited by LeeSkye; 06-28-2005 at 03:45 PM.

06-29-2005, 02:13 PM	#12
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I think that Ali as a role model is the problem. First off he was of course a coward and a draft dodger. He was also very much a racist during his career, and believed that folks of different races should not mix. He was a load mouth with little or no respect for anyone else in his line of work. He was the epitome of bad sportsmanship with his trash talking before during and after fights. If this is the "role model" folks want for young impressionable people, then so be it. I think it also is a reflection on athletes today, who are nothing more then overgrown children with no respect for themselves or anyone around them. Last edited by Claybor; 06-29-2005 at 02:14 PM.

06-29-2005, 02:51 PM	#13
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,019	Calling Ali a draft dodger is a statement of fact I guess. But, "coward" is harsh. In hindsight it would have been easier for him to do his hitch and get out rather than object: He probably would have pulled Elvis-like duty while in the Army. He didn't run away like some did; the term coward seems out-of-place. Christopher __________________ Check Out My Cards!

06-28-2005, 07:37 AM	#2
JohnnyBench Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 254	I have seen quite a few of his fights on ESPN Classic recently. I feel the same as you. He has never quite been my "favorite." BUT his ring skills were top notch. The way he was always able to slip in punches while his opponents agressively pursued him was amazing. His taunting before AND during the bouts truly made him one that people either loved or loved to hate. It had to be frustrating to box a man that spent 85% of the bout leaning on the ropes, yet still landed punches so effectively. I watched one of the Ali - Foreman bouts the other day. Big George pounded away but landed very few solid punches, yet often and it seemed almost at will, Ali landed jabs and hooks that George just couldn't stop. No doubt, like him as a man or not, he was one of the greatest.

06-28-2005, 08:26 AM	#3
rdklein All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The other side. Posts: 773	What amazes me watching all his replay bouts (besides all the obvious characteristics he is known for... i.e. handspeed, footwork, ring savy) was his amazing ability to take a punch. I've seen him many times seemingly get clocked, punches where I would be like, "Damn! How the hell did he stay up after that shot?". They never seemed to even phase him. He just kept on fighting. I guess, when it was all said and done, all those hard punches did take a pretty heavy toll on the man.

06-28-2005, 02:20 PM	#4
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I dont agree at all. I watched him recently against Chuck Wepner, and I thought his tactics were assinine. He backed up against the ropes and let Wepner hit him for over 2 minutes each round, then through a flurry of punches. I will admit that all his punches landed for the last 30 secs of each round, but based on his tactics I think he LOST the fight. I dont care for a fighter who is all flash. Yes he had the capability of being the best ever, but he was such a conceited ass that he definatley was not in my opinion. To me this ass Ali is one of the main reasons that sports today have become sad. It's all about mouth and hype, and that was Ali, mouth and hype. He was definatley one of the best heavyweights ever, but his actions and attitude were sickening and I personally find him to be the most deplorable sports figure throughout the history of sports. I know I will get slammed by all the Ali lovers out there, but with his media hype even today I guess thats to be expected.

06-28-2005, 03:05 PM	#6
Brooks TVB All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Loudon, TN. Posts: 1,439	Ali was a tremendous fighter. He was atleast top 5 all time. Being a great fighter is not enough. A person in their position, like it or not, is a role model. Being a role model brings a lot of responsibility, almost as much as being a parent. I just don't feel you can live a life like Ali, Bryant, or Mayweather and be a good one. Now to get back on topic: Ali could really take a punch and had some great ring intelligence. I personally feel he should have used his boxing skills a little more and did a lot less rope a dope.

06-28-2005, 03:31 PM	#7
jrftbl56 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 287	Ali was the greatest fighter of all-time there was never anyone faster or smarter in the ring the man he was developing into right before he was exiled from the world of boxing also had grown into a good puncher as he was knocking out more punches he lost the best 3 years of his life and still was the greatest fighter of all-time.

06-29-2005, 01:59 PM	#11
Brooks TVB All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Loudon, TN. Posts: 1,439	I persoanlly wasn't looking at it like that. I am just looking at the fact that he is an athlete(whom all races) look at as a role model.

06-29-2005, 03:40 PM	#14
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	You may be correct on the "coward" remark, I just get frustrated when I hear people say this jerk was a "role model". To me he is exactly how you dont want your kids to grow up. Big mouthed, arrogant, and showing no respect for anyone else. But it is also apparent that most of the world disagrees, as today most athletes are, "big mouthed, arrogant, and have no respect for anything or anyone".

06-29-2005, 05:05 PM	#17
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I have never said he didnt have the skills, that I agree 100% with. I also agree that he was one of the best ever. It's hard to judge these guys that never fought each other, so I dont think there is a "best" ever. It will of course be debated for ever. But if I had to pick the top 5 or 10 ever, not matter how much I hate to say it, he would have to be one of them.

06-29-2005, 06:05 PM	#18
Marciano6 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Detroit's Cass Corridor, 7 Mile Posts: 254	Claybor I agree Ali wasnt the best role model he did dodge the draft, Ali was not a role model in the sense that he had huge faults but what boxer didnt?. I never liked Ali he was cocky but also showed respect when respect was due like any fighter. To say Ali was the greatest like the great Dundee said is "Bull****" we will never know if he coulda beat Louis any other fighter before or after him. Ali was great as a young black male myself I realize a lot of african Americans today claim he is the greatest without even seein him fight. They figure if my pa say he the greatest he is. __________________ The Future Is A Mystery, The Past Is History, Today Iz A Gift Thats Why Itz Called The Present.

06-29-2005, 06:45 PM	#19
estone57 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fostoria, Ohio Posts: 69	Ali was not a draft dodger by any senses of the term. When his number came up he did not run. He took it like a man and said his religion prevented him from killing someone he did not regard his enemy. He then filed to be a conscientious objector. Which is his right by law. And eventually the supreme court ruled in his favor. I think draft dodger or coward are not only harsh names but very untrue. I do not wish to go into a religious debate but there are many christians, jewish, and any other religion you can think of conscientious objectors. Also just IMO he was not a racist. But I can see how some would call him that. Ali was many things and some of them bad. But he was also one of the greatest boxers ever. And some still consider him to be the most recognized person world wide. Call him a showboat,vain,egotistical among many others. But a draft dodger? No.