Bonds: via observation, not stats

sixto · 10-21-2002, 11:36 AM

Ok, how much have you *actually* seen Barry Bonds play the last 2 years? Who really still watches baseball? (Not Phillies fans, that's for sure.)

On my honeymoon I had the pleasure to take in a Giants game (understanding bride) and saw Bonds in person, and he ripped a double and was walked several times. Nothing really special to see.

But watching him this postseason, watching him hit these HR in the World Series, tell me that you don't now believe that he is the best hitter that ever lived.

I'm a believer. I've feared Darryl Strawberry, I've feared Gary Carter, Dale Murphy, Chipper Jones - all sorts of guys who've terrorized the Phillies over the years. Bonds was always number 1 or 2 on that list - I think Darryl in his prime tortured us more. But Bonds...right now, at age 39, has got to be more dangerous than anyone, ever. Even Babe Ruth.

That's what I'm seeing. Not based on stats, but on baseball.

GForce22 · 10-21-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
But Bonds...right now, at age 39, has got to be more dangerous than anyone, ever. Even Babe Ruth.

That's what I'm seeing. Not based on stats, but on baseball. [/B]

Since your comment is based on what you've seen (which in itself I have no problem with...I think you can tell a lot from watching a guy every day and not just reading stats) doesn't this statement lose some validity since you obviously didn't SEE Ruth play?

GH

sixto · 10-21-2002, 12:28 PM

interesting point. i guess i mean, the stats are there, but i also feel he backs it up with performance?

i mean, i'm definitely a believer that stats tell stories. and i also believe that stats can mislead. i guess i just mean that, babe ruth was great and has great stats, and barry bonds is great and has great stats, and that, watching bonds play and come through this postseason, i simply can't believe that anyone has ever been more dangerous.

6

JWay · 10-21-2002, 02:26 PM

Bonds wows me. So much patients its crazy.

Scott Vibert · 10-21-2002, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
i mean, i'm definitely a believer that stats tell stories. and i also believe that stats can mislead. i guess i just mean that, babe ruth was great and has great stats, and barry bonds is great and has great stats, and that, watching bonds play and come through this postseason, i simply can't believe that anyone has ever been more dangerous.

But if you had been able to watch Ruth, Williams or some of the others play would you feel the same way? Its easy to judge the players that we have seen, relative to each other, but having to relate these players to players who you haven't seen before becomes difficult. Not to mention how difficult it is to relate players from different eras.

I mean who knows how many homers Ruth would have hit using the harder bats in todays game, against these pitchers, in these fields, or even if he had access to todays supliments and training regiments.

Or if Bonds played in an earlier era, without the "advantages" of this era, would he still be the same player? Personally, I'd guess he'd still be the skinny guy that broke in with the Pirates, not the bulked up slugger we see today.

I haven't seen the others play, but it just doesn't seem quite right to base a judgement on the best player ever on the fact that you saw one of the guys play and can't imagine anyone better... but to each their own.

For the record, I think Bonds is a good player, one of the best in history, but I don't think that he is the best, at least not at this time. IMO, people will need to take a step back, gain some prespective (based on accomplishments from others in this era), after Bonds retires before they can really judge where he fits in among the all time greats. First ballot Hall of Famer absolutely... best of this generation, perhaps, but the best ever?, personally I'd want some more information before making that call.

angry_malkie · 10-21-2002, 09:19 PM

I haven't seen a huuuge amount of Barry, but a fair deal, and it seems to me he's far below the league people put him in... He's definitely a great player, but from what i've seen i think he'd be a .300-.310 ~40hr guy if pitchers attacked him. Almost every homer i've seen him hit was off a mistake from a guy trying to pitch around him, and i've seen him strike out a ton on high fastballs.

Not that my oppinions mean much, i'm not a scout or anything, but if i were a manager i wouldn't bother pitching around him.

Specs · 10-21-2002, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angry_malkie
I haven't seen a huuuge amount of Barry, but a fair deal, and it seems to me he's far below the league people put him in... He's definitely a great player, but from what i've seen i think he'd be a .300-.310 ~40hr guy if pitchers attacked him. Almost every homer i've seen him hit was off a mistake from a guy trying to pitch around him, and i've seen him strike out a ton on high fastballs.

Not that my oppinions mean much, i'm not a scout or anything, but if i were a manager i wouldn't bother pitching around him.

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He hit those 119 HR over the last 2 years almost always on MISTAKES by pitchers. So, we can therefore deduce that pitchers make many more mistakes to Barry Bonds, not that he selects good pitches. Wow.

Survey says........ you're an idiot.

Draft Dodger · 10-21-2002, 10:59 PM

interestingly - just happened to flip through ESPN Classic tonight...Giants Cards playoff from 1998. Bonds looked about 30 lbs lighter...

I definitely think that Bonds where he's at right now (and where's he's been for about the last 2 years) is among the best of all time (along with '41-'42 Williams, and '20-'21 Ruth). I don't think that he's been at the amazing level over his entire career, if that makes sense.

The way he just completely strikes fear into every pitcher is something I certainly haven't seen in my lifetime, and is very much how I picture it was back when Ruth played.

Looking at Ruths numbers over the entire course of career, I think I'd have to give him the nod. I actually didn't realize he was so good at hitting for average - he failed to hit over .300 in a season he played 100 games only once, which was at the age of 39...

Draft Dodger · 10-21-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angry_malkie
Not that my oppinions mean much, i'm not a scout or anything, but if i were a manager i wouldn't bother pitching around him.

not trying to gang up on you here, but did you see last nights game? Troy Percival went right at Bonds, and I believe the ball he hit is still in orbit somewhere.

twins15 · 10-21-2002, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
not trying to gang up on you here, but did you see last nights game? Troy Percival went right at Bonds, and I believe the ball he hit is still in orbit somewhere.

Nah, I heard it landed somewhere in Barstow.

Draft Dodger · 10-21-2002, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twins15
Nah, I heard it landed somewhere in Barstow.

nothing good is from Barstow...except me of course.

angry_malkie · 10-22-2002, 10:30 AM

Ok, so it seems i picked the worst possible time to voice my oppinion, but i stand by it - based only on what i've seen.

From what i've seen, bonds is definitely a great player, with an outsanding eye, stupid power and a lot of patience, but he has trouble with high fastballs. But then living in the UK i only get to see 2 games a week, with no choice of which game, so i haven't seen him as regularly as you lot, and am probably missing something. But the topic of this tread is "via observation, not stats", and that's what I have observed.

twins15 · 10-22-2002, 06:36 PM

Do not base your observation on his at bat the other night. That is what you are basing a lot on, it seems to me, and that you haven't seen him very much.

sixto · 10-22-2002, 06:46 PM

You get to see 2 baseball games a week in the UK?

angry_malkie · 10-22-2002, 06:48 PM

Yup, sunday and wednesday nights, first pitch normally around 1am...

Civic89Brad · 10-22-2002, 06:57 PM

Count me in as one of Barry Bonds biggest fans. The guy be amazing!! Even more amazing is the fact that what as a 3rd generation ballplayer, he's better than his dad Bobby or his grandfather Willie.

I predict Barry will hit 2 bombs 2nite!

twins15 · 10-22-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Civic89Brad
Count me in as one of Barry Bonds biggest fans. The guy be amazing!! Even more amazing is the fact that what as a 3rd generation ballplayer, he's better than his dad Bobby or his grandfather Willie.

I predict Barry will hit 2 bombs 2nite!

I think Willie is his godfather, isn't he?

Braveheart · 10-22-2002, 08:46 PM

Twins15 is correct....Willie is his godfather.

As for Bonds, I have only been "feared" of him the past few seasons.

From my observations, the past 2 years, he has been the best. But I'd have to say that if I saw Ruth, a guy who hit more HRs than most teams (Bonds would have to hit 150 plus HRs to accomplish that), I am inclined to think that Ruth is the most feared hitter of all time. His persona, and imposing size (compared to most ballplayers of that era), further justifies my opinion to me.

sixto · 10-22-2002, 08:53 PM

Willie be his godfather, yes.

Doh. I been beaten to da punch.

Steve Kuffrey · 10-22-2002, 09:57 PM

Interesting

10-21-2002, 11:36 AM	#1
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	Bonds: via observation, not stats Ok, how much have you actually seen Barry Bonds play the last 2 years? Who really still watches baseball? (Not Phillies fans, that's for sure.) On my honeymoon I had the pleasure to take in a Giants game (understanding bride) and saw Bonds in person, and he ripped a double and was walked several times. Nothing really special to see. But watching him this postseason, watching him hit these HR in the World Series, tell me that you don't now believe that he is the best hitter that ever lived. I'm a believer. I've feared Darryl Strawberry, I've feared Gary Carter, Dale Murphy, Chipper Jones - all sorts of guys who've terrorized the Phillies over the years. Bonds was always number 1 or 2 on that list - I think Darryl in his prime tortured us more. But Bonds...right now, at age 39, has got to be more dangerous than anyone, ever. Even Babe Ruth. That's what I'm seeing. Not based on stats, but on baseball.

10-21-2002, 10:59 PM	#8
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	interestingly - just happened to flip through ESPN Classic tonight...Giants Cards playoff from 1998. Bonds looked about 30 lbs lighter... I definitely think that Bonds where he's at right now (and where's he's been for about the last 2 years) is among the best of all time (along with '41-'42 Williams, and '20-'21 Ruth). I don't think that he's been at the amazing level over his entire career, if that makes sense. The way he just completely strikes fear into every pitcher is something I certainly haven't seen in my lifetime, and is very much how I picture it was back when Ruth played. Looking at Ruths numbers over the entire course of career, I think I'd have to give him the nod. I actually didn't realize he was so good at hitting for average - he failed to hit over .300 in a season he played 100 games only once, which was at the age of 39... __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

10-22-2002, 06:36 PM	#13
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Do not base your observation on his at bat the other night. That is what you are basing a lot on, it seems to me, and that you haven't seen him very much. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

10-22-2002, 06:57 PM	#16
Civic89Brad Bat Boy Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Covina, CA Posts: 10	Count me in as one of Barry Bonds biggest fans. The guy be amazing!! Even more amazing is the fact that what as a 3rd generation ballplayer, he's better than his dad Bobby or his grandfather Willie. I predict Barry will hit 2 bombs 2nite! __________________ I ride to live and live to ride

10-22-2002, 08:46 PM	#18
Braveheart Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 152	Twins15 is correct....Willie is his godfather. As for Bonds, I have only been "feared" of him the past few seasons. From my observations, the past 2 years, he has been the best. But I'd have to say that if I saw Ruth, a guy who hit more HRs than most teams (Bonds would have to hit 150 plus HRs to accomplish that), I am inclined to think that Ruth is the most feared hitter of all time. His persona, and imposing size (compared to most ballplayers of that era), further justifies my opinion to me. __________________ "All men die, not all men really live" --William Wallace "See thats the problem with this guy. You call him a moron, and he just sits there acting moronly" This message brought up to from the same people you brought you "FREE BIBS"

10-21-2002, 12:28 PM	#3
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	interesting point. i guess i mean, the stats are there, but i also feel he backs it up with performance? i mean, i'm definitely a believer that stats tell stories. and i also believe that stats can mislead. i guess i just mean that, babe ruth was great and has great stats, and barry bonds is great and has great stats, and that, watching bonds play and come through this postseason, i simply can't believe that anyone has ever been more dangerous. 6

10-21-2002, 02:26 PM	#4
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,031	Bonds wows me. So much patients its crazy.

10-21-2002, 09:19 PM	#6
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	I haven't seen a huuuge amount of Barry, but a fair deal, and it seems to me he's far below the league people put him in... He's definitely a great player, but from what i've seen i think he'd be a .300-.310 ~40hr guy if pitchers attacked him. Almost every homer i've seen him hit was off a mistake from a guy trying to pitch around him, and i've seen him strike out a ton on high fastballs. Not that my oppinions mean much, i'm not a scout or anything, but if i were a manager i wouldn't bother pitching around him.

10-22-2002, 10:30 AM	#12
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	Ok, so it seems i picked the worst possible time to voice my oppinion, but i stand by it - based only on what i've seen. From what i've seen, bonds is definitely a great player, with an outsanding eye, stupid power and a lot of patience, but he has trouble with high fastballs. But then living in the UK i only get to see 2 games a week, with no choice of which game, so i haven't seen him as regularly as you lot, and am probably missing something. But the topic of this tread is "via observation, not stats", and that's what I have observed.

10-22-2002, 06:46 PM	#14
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	You get to see 2 baseball games a week in the UK?

10-22-2002, 06:48 PM	#15
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	Yup, sunday and wednesday nights, first pitch normally around 1am...

10-22-2002, 08:53 PM	#19
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	Willie be his godfather, yes. Doh. I been beaten to da punch. Last edited by sixto; 10-22-2002 at 09:02 PM.

10-22-2002, 09:57 PM	#20
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,035	Interesting __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95