.330/3000 hits: automatic induction? - Page 3

dsvitak · 05-20-2005, 12:02 AM

He is your all time leader in hits.

#1 hits, lifetime.

He has more hits than any player in your league's history.

Nobody in the history of your league has more hits than this guy.

What's the problem here? Lifetime OBP of .389 is just icing on the cake.

3 gold gloves is the bright blue HOF on top of the cake.

rudel.dietrich · 05-20-2005, 12:03 AM

The .720 OPS is just not impressive. But he did have 3000 hits and that sort of thing has been agreed upon by baseball people to be one of the things that gets you into the HOF.

streetballer67 · 05-20-2005, 12:21 AM

How could the league's all-time hit leader not be inducted?

Mike Ivie · 05-20-2005, 12:37 AM

I am surprised people are saying "no"
I can't see any reason to deny him.

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Ivie

I am surprised people are saying "no"
I can't see any reason to deny him.

"

This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of VORP, people.

TonyJ · 05-20-2005, 01:04 AM

Well, unless I misunderstand something, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be reserved for the best players who have ever played the game. This player did one thing exceptionally well, hit for average, and he was fantastic at doing it and played for a long time. That's great, but ultimately it is not the way to judge whether or not he is a Hall of Famer. To do that, you have to judge his total value as a player. Since he did not hit for power, like at all, and only drew a moderate amount of walks he was a good, but not great offensive player and he was actually a sub-standard hitter for his position for almost his entire career. That, to me, is decidedly not a Hall of Famer.

billethius · 05-20-2005, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

He is your all time leader in hits.

#1 hits, lifetime.

He has more hits than any player in your league's history.

Nobody in the history of your league has more hits than this guy.

What's the problem here? Lifetime OBP of .389 is just icing on the cake.

3 gold gloves is the bright blue HOF on top of the cake.

Exactly. He holds a major record in your league and it's not like he did it through longevity alone... he led the league in hits many times.

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyJ

Well, unless I misunderstand something, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be reserved for the best players who have ever played the game.

Eh, I don't know. There are plenty of players not in the hall who were better players than some who are in the hall. The Hall of Fame is for the best players, but it is also for unforgettable players who changed the game (Larry Doby) or who hold records in important categories (Pete Rose). It's for guys who weren't necessarily the best in their eras but were nonetheless entertaining and set a record or two (Nolan Ryan). The Hall of Fame is a lot of things, to be sure, but one thing it has never been is an exclusive club of only the best players to have ever played the game.

TonyJ · 05-20-2005, 01:50 AM

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that we use the Willie Mays standard, the Hall would include like 15 players if you did. However, even those players you mentioned were excellent players. Ryan was overrated, but still a very good pitcher for a LONG time. Doby didn't get in for being the first black to play in the NL after segregation, he got in because he deserved to, as a player. He was a fantastic player in his prime and was given credit, as he should have, for his years playing in the negro leagues. Similar to Ryan, Rose didn't just get in because he was the all-time hit leader, he got in because he was an excellent player for a very long time. This fictional player's only claim to be in the Hall is his number of hits. He was not an excellent player or even a very good player for a long time. He was an excellent singles hitter but a mediocre hitter for his position for a long time. Basically, he's Wally Joyner in terms of value. That's just not a Hall of Fame player.

Qwerty75 · 05-20-2005, 01:58 AM

You should put him in so later you can inspire debates about how overrated he was.

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 02:03 AM

I don't believe Doby played long in the Negro Leagues. Remember that he and Robinson came in as youngsters, which basically drove a frustrated Josh Gibson out of the game. Doby's first year was in the majors he was 22 (?). And there are a lot of other guys with better hall resumes than Doby. He was a very good player, but he didn't get in on account of his performance alone.

Anyway, I'm all for not just putting people in the hall because they get to certain counting stats, but I draw the line when it comes to excluding a league's all-time hits leader, who happens to be a .330 career hitter who would take a few walks, and who was an above-average player for a long, long time. And he played a little bit of catcher.

I won't say that your position is ridiculous, though; we just differ on what side of the fence we're on for this particular guy. I just couldn't imagine not having the all-time hits leader in the hall unless he's some guy who was below-average for 27 years.

Y0DA55 · 05-20-2005, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I don't believe Doby played long in the Negro Leagues. Remember that he and Robinson came in as youngsters, which basically drove a frustrated Josh Gibson out of the game. Doby's first year was in the majors he was 22 (?). And there are a lot of other guys with better hall resumes than Doby. He was a very good player, but he didn't get in on account of his performance alone.

Anyway, I'm all for not just putting people in the hall because they get to certain counting stats, but I draw the line when it comes to excluding a league's all-time hits leader, who happens to be a .330 career hitter who would take a few walks, and who was an above-average player for a long, long time. And he played a little bit of catcher.

I won't say that your position is ridiculous, though; we just differ on what side of the fence we're on for this particular guy. I just couldn't imagine not having the all-time hits leader in the hall unless he's some guy who was below-average for 27 years.

"

I'm too lazy to go look right now, but I think it really depends on how much history you have in your league. If you started in 2000, then I can totally see you not putting him in (although, that's not my stance... he's in for me). But if your league has a built up history, and he's at the top of the list for hits, he's in.

Crapshoot · 05-20-2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

You need to be more careful with what you type.
Rose had 2.5 as many doubles as this player, over 100 more HR and 110 more 3B

I don't know what is going on with all of the Pete hating going around. The man was one of the 50 top players in baseball history.

You need to learn what you're talking about before claiming expertise in it.
Yes, career 118 OPS+ 1b (and 3b) is clearly great. A player who cost his team on the basepaths (57% career SB - got caught stealing 106 times!). A guy who cracked the top 10 in OPS+ in his career 3 times! A good player, but a guy who was league average in OPS+ (or RC - pick your poison) at 1b for the last 5 years of his career doesnt particulary get bonus points for longevity. Sometimes I wonder if people recognize the replacement level of a 1b.

Crapshoot · 05-20-2005, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

"

This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of VORP, people.

Yeah, screw players who were good- keep players who were "Clutch" and "knew how to win". Among the more pathetic retorts to the sabremetric ideas, this one ranks up there.

Crapshoot · 05-20-2005, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I don't believe Doby played long in the Negro Leagues. Remember that he and Robinson came in as youngsters, which basically drove a frustrated Josh Gibson out of the game. Doby's first year was in the majors he was 22 (?). And there are a lot of other guys with better hall resumes than Doby. He was a very good player, but he didn't get in on account of his performance alone.

Eh, perhaps you should check b-r before making claims like that. Doby had a Career OPS + of 136, and a RC/27 of 6.80 - while playing CF. He was in top 7 for slugging in his league for 8 straight years, and top 10 in OPS for 9 straight years. HOF CF's with that resume don't come along that often. The career value arguement is about the only thing that can be held against him, but I refuse to reward a player's Hall's credential for being essentialy average beyond a point.

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Yeah, screw players who were good- keep players who were "Clutch" and "knew how to win". Among the more pathetic retorts to the sabremetric ideas, this one ranks up there.

Yeah, because that's definitely what I said. How old are you?

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

A player who cost his team on the basepaths (57% career SB - got caught stealing 106 times!).

Larry Doby was a career 57% basestealer.

sebastian0622 · 05-20-2005, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Eh, perhaps you should check b-r before making claims like that. Doby had a Career OPS + of 136, and a RC/27 of 6.80 - while playing CF. He was in top 7 for slugging in his league for 8 straight years, and top 10 in OPS for 9 straight years. HOF CF's with that resume don't come along that often. The career value arguement is about the only thing that can be held against him, but I refuse to reward a player's Hall's credential for being essentialy average beyond a point.

Maybe you should check the other players in the Hall of Fame before you make claims like that. Maybe you should also read my posts. I said he was a very good player. Anyway, I'll discuss Doby's career without resorting to thinly-guised personal attacks:

You're right, Doby has a career OPS+ of 136, which ties him for 97th on the all-time list. His longevity is nonexistent. He played ten quality years and one poor one. He finished with downright poor counting stats for a Hall of Famer: 1515 hits, 253 HR's.

To me, a guy with half the longevity/career stats of others who were left out of the Hall--all the while being the 97th most feared hitter in history--is a perfect example of how it isn't the Hall of Vorp. Doby got in for other considerations as much or more so than he got in for his performance. That was my original point. It still stands as a valid point IMO.

Elendil · 05-20-2005, 03:06 AM

Well, this guy has certainly stirred up controversy. Since my league just started in 2005 and is only up to 2022 now, I think I will wait another three years, assuming a five-year post-retirement threshold for eligibility, before making a decision on him. There are a few other guys who have retired and probably ought to be inducted. Once they're in, I'll have a better picture of what the real standards for the Hall are. What makes debates about the Hall so rich is the fact that its very purpose is debated. Is it for the most valuable players, or a combination of valuable & interesting players? Vivar is certainly interesting. He got 200 hits in a season eight consecutive years, and ten years in his career. I really wonder whether anyone else in the league's future will match that. Sabermetrically, the guy is not one of the most valuable first basemen in league history. However, he's had a few "interesting feats," to say the least.

rudel.dietrich · 05-20-2005, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Sometimes I wonder if people recognize the replacement level of a 1b.

I recognize that Rose was an exceptional player and in the top 20 in history at several different posistions.

05-20-2005, 12:21 AM	#43
streetballer67 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,004	How could the league's all-time hit leader not be inducted? __________________ Visit Here!!!

05-20-2005, 12:37 AM	#44
Mike Ivie Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 203	I am surprised people are saying "no" I can't see any reason to deny him. __________________ NBL - San Diego Padres

05-20-2005, 01:04 AM	#46
TonyJ Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Gassin' Kurds Posts: 2,019	Well, unless I misunderstand something, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be reserved for the best players who have ever played the game. This player did one thing exceptionally well, hit for average, and he was fantastic at doing it and played for a long time. That's great, but ultimately it is not the way to judge whether or not he is a Hall of Famer. To do that, you have to judge his total value as a player. Since he did not hit for power, like at all, and only drew a moderate amount of walks he was a good, but not great offensive player and he was actually a sub-standard hitter for his position for almost his entire career. That, to me, is decidedly not a Hall of Famer. __________________ My Podcasts: Talk Democratic Dysfunction Name Two Bands with Andy and Andy

05-20-2005, 01:50 AM	#49
TonyJ Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Gassin' Kurds Posts: 2,019	Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that we use the Willie Mays standard, the Hall would include like 15 players if you did. However, even those players you mentioned were excellent players. Ryan was overrated, but still a very good pitcher for a LONG time. Doby didn't get in for being the first black to play in the NL after segregation, he got in because he deserved to, as a player. He was a fantastic player in his prime and was given credit, as he should have, for his years playing in the negro leagues. Similar to Ryan, Rose didn't just get in because he was the all-time hit leader, he got in because he was an excellent player for a very long time. This fictional player's only claim to be in the Hall is his number of hits. He was not an excellent player or even a very good player for a long time. He was an excellent singles hitter but a mediocre hitter for his position for a long time. Basically, he's Wally Joyner in terms of value. That's just not a Hall of Fame player. __________________ My Podcasts: Talk Democratic Dysfunction Name Two Bands with Andy and Andy

05-20-2005, 01:58 AM	#50
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 817	You should put him in so later you can inspire debates about how overrated he was. __________________

05-20-2005, 12:02 AM	#41
dsvitak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,389	He is your all time leader in hits. #1 hits, lifetime. He has more hits than any player in your league's history. Nobody in the history of your league has more hits than this guy. What's the problem here? Lifetime OBP of .389 is just icing on the cake. 3 gold gloves is the bright blue HOF on top of the cake.

05-20-2005, 12:03 AM	#42
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	The .720 OPS is just not impressive. But he did have 3000 hits and that sort of thing has been agreed upon by baseball people to be one of the things that gets you into the HOF.

05-20-2005, 02:03 AM	#51
sebastian0622 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,465	I don't believe Doby played long in the Negro Leagues. Remember that he and Robinson came in as youngsters, which basically drove a frustrated Josh Gibson out of the game. Doby's first year was in the majors he was 22 (?). And there are a lot of other guys with better hall resumes than Doby. He was a very good player, but he didn't get in on account of his performance alone. Anyway, I'm all for not just putting people in the hall because they get to certain counting stats, but I draw the line when it comes to excluding a league's all-time hits leader, who happens to be a .330 career hitter who would take a few walks, and who was an above-average player for a long, long time. And he played a little bit of catcher. I won't say that your position is ridiculous, though; we just differ on what side of the fence we're on for this particular guy. I just couldn't imagine not having the all-time hits leader in the hall unless he's some guy who was below-average for 27 years. Last edited by sebastian0622; 05-20-2005 at 02:04 AM.

05-20-2005, 03:06 AM	#59
Elendil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the dynasty forum Posts: 2,318	Well, this guy has certainly stirred up controversy. Since my league just started in 2005 and is only up to 2022 now, I think I will wait another three years, assuming a five-year post-retirement threshold for eligibility, before making a decision on him. There are a few other guys who have retired and probably ought to be inducted. Once they're in, I'll have a better picture of what the real standards for the Hall are. What makes debates about the Hall so rich is the fact that its very purpose is debated. Is it for the most valuable players, or a combination of valuable & interesting players? Vivar is certainly interesting. He got 200 hits in a season eight consecutive years, and ten years in his career. I really wonder whether anyone else in the league's future will match that. Sabermetrically, the guy is not one of the most valuable first basemen in league history. However, he's had a few "interesting feats," to say the least. __________________ Heaven is kicking back with a double Talisker and a churchwarden stuffed with latakia.