Interesting Test (concerning Barry Bonds and the Giants) - Page 7

IatricSB · 03-24-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IatricSB to jackson41

Was wondering if you had any other comments regarding 'roids and walks?

*crickets*

<o> · 03-24-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IatricSB

*crickets*

Um, roids helps you stand there longer to take a walk?

jackson41 · 03-24-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IatricSB

Was wondering if you had any other comments regarding 'roids and walks?

Well since you asked. If Bonds is on roids, he certainly is not the only one, yet he is the only one with jaw dropping walk totals. The other "juiced" power hitters have higher k totals and lower bb totals. Bonds has the discipline to not swing at the bad pitches others chase.

The mention of other roid users brings up two more points I'm sure will keep this debate lively.

1. I'm willing to bet that the majority of baseball players are using some type of stimulant/supplement that is banned by the IOC. I'm not saying everybody uses stuff as serious as steroids, but I wouldn't be surprised if most ball players couldn't pass an Olympic drug test.

2. All the talk is about juiced hitters, what about juiced pitchers? The common belief is that Bonds is a cheater because he is old, yet still putting up great numbers, and that he has added bulk as he has gotten older. Well, last year the NL Cy Young went to a 40+ pitcher who beat out another 40+ pitcher. There old and still at the top of their game, and the 40+ CY winner was also a pretty skinny guy back in the 80's. I'm not saying he uses steroids, just that it seems like a similar situation to me.

If hitters are using roids, pitchers are too. If a certain percentage of hitters are juiced are the same percentage of pitcher juiced too? And if that is the case, doesn't that even out the playing field?

Claybor · 03-24-2005, 04:11 PM

Bonds may be the best "modern day slugger", I will give him that, but to compare him, or anyone for that matter to Babe Ruth is a bit out there. Ruth had a season in which he hit more homeruns then every other TEAM in the league but 1. Bonds RBI totals dont even come close to Ruths, and neither does his batting average. Yes, I will grant you he gets more walks, but thats because managers and pitchers today have no guts. Its a very different game today, and very hard to compare players, but there is no doubt statistically compared to baseball in their own eras that Ruth was far and away above the rest. Ruth was also a winner, he was part of the last Redsox WS in 86 years until 2004, and 2 years later was the main force in what was the real beginning of the New York Yankees baseball dominance.

jackson41 · 03-24-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IatricSB

*crickets*

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't ignoring you. Just trying to juggle this and work. My comments are above.

Crapshoot · 03-24-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claybor

Bonds may be the best "modern day slugger", I will give him that, but to compare him, or anyone for that matter to Babe Ruth is a bit out there. Ruth had a season in which he hit more homeruns then every other TEAM in the league but 1. Bonds RBI totals dont even come close to Ruths, and neither does his batting average. Yes, I will grant you he gets more walks, but thats because managers and pitchers today have no guts. Its a very different game today, and very hard to compare players, but there is no doubt statistically compared to baseball in their own eras that Ruth was far and away above the rest. Ruth was also a winner, he was part of the last Redsox WS in 86 years until 2004, and 2 years later was the main force in what was the real beginning of the New York Yankees baseball dominance.

Dude, without being rude- read up a little bit on OPS+, WS, and WARP 3 - Ruth's domination over his league was than that of Bonds.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Your arguement has repeatedly failed to address the talent gap and you know, the lack of African American or Hispanic players. Again, your preferences set aside, you would think that that makes a bit of a difference, eh ?

Wrong again. You missed the part about the environment.

jackson41 · 03-24-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claybor

Bonds may be the best "modern day slugger", I will give him that, but to compare him, or anyone for that matter to Babe Ruth is a bit out there. Ruth had a season in which he hit more homeruns then every other TEAM in the league but 1. Bonds RBI totals dont even come close to Ruths, and neither does his batting average. Yes, I will grant you he gets more walks, but thats because managers and pitchers today have no guts. Its a very different game today, and very hard to compare players, but there is no doubt statistically compared to baseball in their own eras that Ruth was far and away above the rest. Ruth was also a winner, he was part of the last Redsox WS in 86 years until 2004, and 2 years later was the main force in what was the real beginning of the New York Yankees baseball dominance.

Ruth played on teams with HOFers, Bonds plays on teams that would be below .500 w/out him. You can't drive in guys that aren’t on base. It takes a team to win championships, not one man. Although the only reason the Giants have been anything recently is Bonds. Take Ruth off the Yankees and they are still good enough to win. Take Bonds off the Giants and you have a very bad team, which is why this thread was started to begin with.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

And its absolutely legal to call you an old, leather bound coot whose time has passed, but who refused to let go.

Wrong yet again: "name-calling will not be tolerated. Any form of disrespect posted with the intent to insult will not be tolerated."

The false, continuous, and at best thinly disguised accusations of racism from the OT crowd are extremely offensive. As was the above.

Crapshoot · 03-24-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Wrong yet again: "name-calling will not be tolerated. Any form of disrespect posted with the intent to insult will not be tolerated."

The false, continuous, and at best thinly disguised accusations of racism from the OT crowd are extremely offensive. As was the above.

Mal, when you were gone, there have been pages detailing the arguement. Do you want to attempt to answer the population statistics, or should I assume you'll pass as per usual ?

Crapshoot · 03-24-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson41

Ruth played on teams with HOFers, Bonds plays on teams that would be below .500 w/out him. You can't drive in guys that aren’t on base. It takes a team to win championships, not one man. Although the only reason the Giants have been anything recently is Bonds. Take Ruth off the Yankees and they are still good enough to win. Take Bonds off the Giants and you have a very bad team, which is why this thread was started to begin with.

An underappreciated fact- find me a HOF who Bonds has ever played with.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

I think a person's opinion on this topic is directly correlated to their personality. If someone is naturally an optimist, they see parity, increased talent pool, more at-the-ready coverage as a bonus. If someone is a pessimist, they see the roids and the overpaying of players and all that is bad.

Ever consider that the pessimism of the older posters like Tigerfan and me might just have a little something to do with our having watched baseball decline continuously?

We don't see so many bad things because we're pessimistic, we're pessimistic because we see so many bad things. Try not to confuse cause and effect.

On the bright side, IMO OOTP has never been better than it is right now.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Mal, when you were gone, there have been pages detailing the arguement. Do you want to attempt to answer the population statistics, or should I assume you'll pass as per usual ?

Go back and read the environment comment.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:43 PM

Fun tidbit from ESPN on steroid test result on MLB players: "Baseball officials told Congress there were 84-96 positive tests in 2003, when there were no penalties, and 12 last year..."

No, it's not just Bonds.

<o> · 03-24-2005, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

An underappreciated fact- find me a HOF who Bonds has ever played with.

Jeff Kent? Bobby Bonilla? Ok, I'm kidding on the second one.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by <o>

Bingo. I said that a couple of weeks ago, but no one listened.

And you were wrong then as well. Go uptopic and you can find yet another thinly veiled accusation of racism.

I'm calling people on the personal attacks when they make them in hopes that one day they will actually start abiding by the rules. I'm not holding my breath, though.
</o>

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

An underappreciated fact- find me a HOF who Bonds has ever played with.

Orel Hershiser? Will Clark? Matt Williams? Rod Beck? Danny Darwin?

<o> · 03-24-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Orel Hershiser? Will Clark? Matt Williams? Rod Beck? Danny Darwin?

Actually, I think he was referring to hitters that could take some of the pressure off Bonds. And trust me, unless the BBWA have a brain fart, Darwin isn't in, no matter what kind of discussion might evolve from it.

Joshv02 · 03-24-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Orel Hershiser? Will Clark? Matt Williams? Rod Beck? Danny Darwin?

maybe *
no
no
no
no

*edit

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Sorry, I must not read as good as you. Please show me where in that article it says that Bonds took steroids in 1999. Also please point out where it says he took them period?

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/whitecollarcrime_blog/

"Bonds testified that he used two items provided by his personal trainer, Greg Anderson, that contained steroids, but asserted that he did not know what was in them."

03-24-2005, 04:11 PM	#124
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,361 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Bonds may be the best "modern day slugger", I will give him that, but to compare him, or anyone for that matter to Babe Ruth is a bit out there. Ruth had a season in which he hit more homeruns then every other TEAM in the league but 1. Bonds RBI totals dont even come close to Ruths, and neither does his batting average. Yes, I will grant you he gets more walks, but thats because managers and pitchers today have no guts. Its a very different game today, and very hard to compare players, but there is no doubt statistically compared to baseball in their own eras that Ruth was far and away above the rest. Ruth was also a winner, he was part of the last Redsox WS in 86 years until 2004, and 2 years later was the main force in what was the real beginning of the New York Yankees baseball dominance.