Joes Canseco

[fantom1979]

                Hits     HR    RBI   AVG
Allen           1848    351   1119  .292
Canseco         1877    462   1407  .266

Neither one are getting in

[GurnB]

Originally posted by spleen1015
Granted, I don't know the full situation and I don't know what's going to be in the book, but form that interview I believe he's scorned because no one in MLB will give him the opportunity to hit 500 HR. He talks about how badly he's been treated the last 3-4 years and I truly believe he's pissed because he couldn't get to the 500 milestone, which could make him a lock for the HoF.

I just don't see him getting into the HoF even with 500 HR's

I think the HoF is getting to crowded. 500HR's is gonna be a drop in the bucket 25 years from now. The 80's - 90's are gonna look like the Dead Ball Era II in the future.

The ball of the head for a HR. That was funny/cool.
Injuring himself while pitching in a mop-up situation. That was stupid.
1st member of the 40/40 Club. Way cool.
Writing a so called, "Tell All" book because he's bitter. Waives all his rights.

Just my opinion....

[twins15]

I don't think that this would be considered a dead ball era. All the otehr eras before this one were no so dominated by the hr.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by GurnB
I think the HoF is getting to crowded. 500HR's is gonna be a drop in the bucket 25 years from now. The 80's - 90's are gonna look like the Dead Ball Era II in the future.

What figures are you basing this on? The rate that homeruns are hit hasn't increased since 93/94. The peak numbers increased briefly after both expansions, but the talent pool is already catching up as can be seen from the peak numbers this year. Homeruns are being hit as rapidly in 2002 as they were in 2001, 1998, 1994, etc. Expansion simply dilutes both hitting and pitching talent and causes some incredible performances, like 60-70 HR's and sub 2 ERA's.

I think we'll find fewer guys hitting 500 HR's than we expect right now. There are a lot of guys hitting 300 or 400 but they're also in their 30's, which is when decline kicks in.

Jason

[spleen1015]

Isn't true that some of the greatest HR hitters have peaked in their 30s? Bonds? Aaron? So, saying decline kicks in during the 30s may not be totally accurate.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by spleen1015
Isn't true that some of the greatest HR hitters have peaked in their 30s? Bonds? Aaron? So, saying decline kicks in during the 30s may not be totally accurate.

Bonds has peaked HR-wise but he's been putting up MVP-quality numbers since 1990. He's also an exception to the rule.

Aaron's best years were pretty much every year from 1955 to 1973, ages 21 to 39. That's probably why he's the all time HR leader by a wide margin.

Edit: Looking through the list of active HR leaders, I don't see that many who IMHO will hit 500:

Bonds - Has enough pride that if he has one subpar season I think he'll be gone. 700 is in range but who knows how much longer his body can hold up.

Sosa - 33 years old and at 496. The guy has dominated the league for years, 500 or 600 or 700 is neither surprising nor an insult to baseball.

Griffey Jr - If he doesn't recover from his injury he'll probably get there anyway, he's only 32 and has 467 HR. Then again, everyone was picking him to break Aaron's record before he turned 25, and his best season was 1993 when he was 23. He clinched the HOF before he even went to the Reds. Personally, I don't think he's ever going to fully recover from his injuries, and 500 HR will take multiple years to reach but he'll get there.

Mcgriff - 39 and has 477. He may squeak past 500 by playing longer than he should, but it's going to be close. I don't think his inclusion in the 500 club would be surprising to anyone who watched him play in Toronto in the 80's.

Palmeiro - 38 and a first ballot hall of famer, sitting at 488. Another guy who is not really a surprise.

Gonzalez - 33 and showing his age. 405 HR. I would guess he'll end up with about 460.

No one else currently playing is really in reach of it. Bagwell is one of the greatest first basemen in history, but he's 34 and in decline with 379 HR. Will probably end up in the mid 400's. Gary Sheffield is 33, starting to decline, and has 340 HR. He's probably lost 100 HR's by playing in extreme pitcher's parks, but that's his problem, not mine. No one else on the active list is more than an extreme longshot for 500.

While 500 is an easier number to get to now, without a doubt, I don't see anyone who is going to reach it without being HOF material anyway.

Jason

[Sharkie]

I agree, I don't think Canseco should be in the Hall of Fame. The 500 home runs would have changed my mind but as it is, nope, doesn't make it.

[Rob in Phoenix]

CANSECO was the best player of his generation! No QUESTION. He belongs in the hall of fame. I have been teaching my son to be a total player like Canseco and believe me it takes work. The Little League coach was trying to teach my son to bunt last season. Canseco never bunted and my son won't either! Three run home runs win ballgames, not bunts!

[SoxWin]

small ball > 3 run homeruns

Cheers

Rich

[crackpott]

Rob, I had a kid like your son swinging for the fences on the team I coach. He wouldn't listen to us to try to change it either. Results? 2-25 with 2 homeruns... and 23 strikeouts. I guess THAT wins games.

[Rob in Phoenix]

Don't get me wrong, the kid has to have some GAME if he's going to swing for the fences. My son hit .289 so he's no slouch at the plate. He's only 12 now but by the time he gets to high school he will be hitting 400 foot bombs just like Canseco. When Canseco was a kid in Cuba, I bet he wasn't bunting and playing that station to station bull****

[crackpott]

...Coincidence? Our kids were 11...

out of 13 kids, 1 had 0 hits, .000 average... ugh, he was bad. One had 2 hits, for just under .100, one had about a .200 average, and everyone else was well above .400, a few above .500, and one above .600. .289 for that age isn't all that impressive... Batting 10th out of 13 in my teams lineup.

I bet when Canseco was a kid, no he wasn't bunting, but I'm sure when he started playing organized baseball, he did what the coach told him to do. If he didn't, he wouldn't have made it this far. I'm sure he was taught that contact is what's important, moving the runners along. Once he got that down, then power is important... although maybe he forgot that in his later years.

Especially at that level. It's so easy to steal bases. A walk turns into a triple frequently through steals. It's completely unnecessary to try to be a hero.

[twins15]

Originally posted by Rob in Phoenix
CANSECO was the best player of his generation! No QUESTION. He belongs in the hall of fame. I have been teaching my son to be a total player like Canseco and believe me it takes work. The Little League coach was trying to teach my son to bunt last season. Canseco never bunted and my son won't either! Three run home runs win ballgames, not bunts!

Please tell me that was sarcastic.

[Malleus Dei]

Please keep "Rob in Phoenix" and such in Off Topic. Thanks.

[SoxWin]

We don't want him there any more then you want him here Mal

Cheers

Rich

[Carplos]

It's funny that the same people who would call Small ball better than the 3-run HR would also be the ones rooting for the Small Market Athletics.

[Dxgarnett]

Canseco was the most dominating player in the late 80's. He's a hall of famer, plain and simple.

NOTE- Check User "Dxgarnett" 's profile and double check the "Favorite Player" area.

Edit- Forgot they got rid of that area on this board, but Canseco is my favorite all time player. Favorite active players are Eli Marrero, Matt Clement, and Michael Tejera.

Favorite players from the Cards and Cubs and I'm an Astros fan,heh.

Chris

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by Dxgarnett
Canseco was the most dominating player in the late 80's. He's a hall of famer, plain and simple.

Did Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines change their name to Canseco, or am I missing something?

Jason

[Goody]

Tim Raines?

Rickey was the best of the era, I agree!


Tim Raines???

Tim was like Harold Reynolds. Good lead-off, but not in the same sentence with Rickey.

[Jason Moyer]

I'll agree that my implied comparison between Rickey and Tim was a little over the top. Tim was still twice the ballplayer Canseco was, it's just that Rickey was more like 5-10 times.

Jason