Best All-time Heavyweight Champion?

jrmorgan56 · 08-28-2002, 11:48 AM

I know this is an old and tired question...but is asked constantly in different forms. Who do you think was the best heavyweight champion in history? (Questions like these are always fun to ask for users of Title Bout!)

Mark42661 · 08-28-2002, 03:06 PM

In my opinion, I'd have to say that Muhammad Ali was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Prior to being stripped of the title, his speed made him simply unbeatable. After he returned from his 3 year absence, he showed that he possessed all of the qualities of a great fighter....stamina, a great chin, the ability to adapt during a fight, and plenty of heart. He's also a great human being who stood up for what he believed in and never compromised.

Rocky Marciano is a very close second. Alot of people rip Marciano for various reasons, but there are more intangibles working in Rocky's favor than maybe for any other heavyweight ever. It just seemed that he was just not capable of losing a fight. A great example of this is the 2nd Ezzard Charles fight. Because of a terrible cut, the referee told his corner that he was going to give Marciano one more round...and, sure enough, he pulled out the victory. I truly believe that if Marciano was in his prime today, he still would have been a great fighter.

jrmorgan56 · 08-28-2002, 03:15 PM

I agree with everything you said about Ali. It is unbearably unfortunate for boxing fans everywhere that he was stripped of his title. He was at top form then.

It was hard for me to choose between Louis and Ali. I prefer Louis' attention to technique...but if anything Ali gets the nod just for the wars he fought in the ring in his later years. The end of his career was filled with awesome heavyweights....

I like Marciano...but not that impressed with his opponents at the time. I wish he came around earlier...when Louis wasn't over the hill. Marciano leads the list in heart though...he could take a beating and keep on coming. He was relentless.

Mark42661 · 08-28-2002, 03:44 PM

Yeah, Joe Louis was truly great too.

You know, a fighter who is often underated is James Jeffries. He seems to be judged too much on his fight with Jack Johnson when he was over-the-hill. He was almost impossible to hurt, had un-matchable stamina, he was big enough to fit in any era of boxing and he was faster than he's usually given credit for. I read a very interesting article not long ago (and I can't find it right now) which made some very solid points for Jeffries being the greatest heavyweight of all time.

jrmorgan56 · 08-28-2002, 04:00 PM

Hmmm...I have to admit I haven't really thought/read much about Jeffries. I know about his fights against Fitz, Sharkey, and of course Johnson. I don't know much about him other than that. What a fight against Sharkey though!!!

wildhawke11 · 08-28-2002, 09:33 PM

its so very hard to pick the greatest fighter of all time. but i think
Ali stands alone above all. At the same time you can only be The Best of Your Time
1 ALI
2 LOUIS
3 TUNNEY
4 JOHNSON
5 MARCIANIO
6 HOLMES
7 DEMPSEY
its impossable LOL. so i wont go on.
When i try to judge a fight i work it over 10 bouts
i think in most cases any of the above would beat Ali in 3 fights out of the 10
most underated Charles and Walcott.
No one would meet Walcott at his peak.
and the public never forgave Charles for beating there hero Louis.
love to have seen Walcott fight Marciano when the old Walcott was at his peak.

jrmorgan56 · 08-29-2002, 05:01 PM

Ahhh, Tunney. I almost listed him in the poll....probably should've.

I only put Lewis in there because I've read lately that in some minds, his win over Tyson puts him in a whole other field and among the best heavyweights ever. I wouldn't say that...

...maybe if he beat the Tyson that demolished Spinks....now THAT would've impressed me.

Mark · 09-03-2002, 10:53 PM

Had Tyson not gone off the rails, I figure he may have been talked about in the same revered tones as we now speak of Ali. The main difference was the strength of opposition. Many of the contemporaries of Ali's era were great fighters in their own right and, had it not been for Ali, may have held the World Title. Tyson's opposition was never near the overall quality of that which Ali had to contend with.

Still, all you can do is beat your opponent, regardless of their standard. That's why I think Tyson 'coulda been a contendah' as one of the greatest in the sports history. As it stands, he bares up as one of the sports greatest embarassments.

jrmorgan56 · 09-04-2002, 11:04 AM

I couldn't agree with you more, Mark

LivnLegend · 09-20-2002, 06:26 PM

Looks like Ali's winning in a runaway! And it should be!

jrmorgan56 · 09-20-2002, 06:34 PM

I honestly expected more votes for Joe Louis.....oh well....

09-30-2002, 12:26 AM

Here are my all-time ratings for heavies in their prime,

Ali-Combination of foot and hand speed, boxing ability, defense. solid chin and solid power made him unbeatable.

Johnson-Similar to Ali but without the footspeed and an unreliable chin.

Holmes-Similar to Ali but less footspeed and less effective defense.

Tyson-In his prime his combination of handspeed, decent defense and great power made him one of the best.

Louis Great handspeed and power.

Tunney-A 1920's version of Ali.

Marciano and Dempsey - poor quality of opposition makes them slightly suspect in my view.

jrmorgan56 · 09-30-2002, 11:23 AM

You know, Ali's cocky attitude and the way he kept his hands lowered was his biggest drawback, in my opinion. Look what Henry Cooper did....I watched a film of the fight, and many people say that after Cooper floored Ali, Ali was very dazed and if the round wasn't almost over, Ali might not have made it. I listened to Ali talk about the fight...saying he was just going along, doing his thing, and all of a sudden, BAM! He didn't know what happened!

09-30-2002, 01:10 PM

Ali became more careful as he got older so he didn't get surprised as often. After that Cooper fight he was down only two other times: once in 1971 against Frazier and once against Chuck Wepner.

I don't agree that Ali's style with his hands lowered was a drawback at all. Many great boxers keep their front hand down as it improves the speed of their jab. For examples, Thomas Hearns, Larry Holmes and Archie Moore. You get a lot more snap in the jab if you bring it up and out than simply straight out.

mogath · 10-01-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrmorgan56
Ahhh, Tunney. I almost listed him in the poll....probably should've.

I only put Lewis in there because I've read lately that in some minds, his win over Tyson puts him in a whole other field and among the best heavyweights ever. I wouldn't say that...

...maybe if he beat the Tyson that demolished Spinks....now THAT would've impressed me.

I think if Lewis would have fought Tyson at his best, the outcome may have been different. While I am a big Lenox Lewis fan, he borders on being overrated. Who has he really beaten besides Holyfield? When he beat Tyson, Tyson was and is a shot fighter. Probaby should've included Jack Dempsey in the top 5 instead of Lennox Lewis.

Regards,
Jeff

jrmorgan56 · 10-01-2002, 06:36 PM

I totally agree with you about Lewis. I said earlier in this thread that the only reason I put him in is because there was some crazy opinions going around that his win over Tyson put him among the best all time. I think that is crazy. If Lewis beat the Tyson that showed up to fight Spinks....then that would impress me. Also, Lewis' chin sometimes doesn't show up with him to the fight! A little too "up and down" to be an all time great.

View Poll Results: Who was the best all-time heavyweight champion?
Muhammad Ali	27	77.14%
Joe Louis	3	8.57%
Jack Johnson	2	5.71%
Rocky Marciano	2	5.71%
Lennox Lewis	1	2.86%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

08-28-2002, 11:48 AM	#1
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Best All-time Heavyweight Champion? I know this is an old and tired question...but is asked constantly in different forms. Who do you think was the best heavyweight champion in history? (Questions like these are always fun to ask for users of Title Bout!)

08-28-2002, 03:06 PM	#2
Mark42661 All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Home of the Kansas City Chiefs! Posts: 1,080	In my opinion, I'd have to say that Muhammad Ali was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Prior to being stripped of the title, his speed made him simply unbeatable. After he returned from his 3 year absence, he showed that he possessed all of the qualities of a great fighter....stamina, a great chin, the ability to adapt during a fight, and plenty of heart. He's also a great human being who stood up for what he believed in and never compromised. Rocky Marciano is a very close second. Alot of people rip Marciano for various reasons, but there are more intangibles working in Rocky's favor than maybe for any other heavyweight ever. It just seemed that he was just not capable of losing a fight. A great example of this is the 2nd Ezzard Charles fight. Because of a terrible cut, the referee told his corner that he was going to give Marciano one more round...and, sure enough, he pulled out the victory. I truly believe that if Marciano was in his prime today, he still would have been a great fighter. __________________ A Man of the World Site dedicated to Sailor Tom Sharkey

08-28-2002, 03:44 PM	#4
Mark42661 All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Home of the Kansas City Chiefs! Posts: 1,080	Yeah, Joe Louis was truly great too. You know, a fighter who is often underated is James Jeffries. He seems to be judged too much on his fight with Jack Johnson when he was over-the-hill. He was almost impossible to hurt, had un-matchable stamina, he was big enough to fit in any era of boxing and he was faster than he's usually given credit for. I read a very interesting article not long ago (and I can't find it right now) which made some very solid points for Jeffries being the greatest heavyweight of all time. __________________ A Man of the World Site dedicated to Sailor Tom Sharkey

08-28-2002, 04:00 PM	#5
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Hmmm...I have to admit I haven't really thought/read much about Jeffries. I know about his fights against Fitz, Sharkey, and of course Johnson. I don't know much about him other than that. What a fight against Sharkey though!!! __________________ CornerWork

08-28-2002, 03:15 PM	#3
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I agree with everything you said about Ali. It is unbearably unfortunate for boxing fans everywhere that he was stripped of his title. He was at top form then. It was hard for me to choose between Louis and Ali. I prefer Louis' attention to technique...but if anything Ali gets the nod just for the wars he fought in the ring in his later years. The end of his career was filled with awesome heavyweights.... I like Marciano...but not that impressed with his opponents at the time. I wish he came around earlier...when Louis wasn't over the hill. Marciano leads the list in heart though...he could take a beating and keep on coming. He was relentless.

08-28-2002, 09:33 PM	#6
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	The Champions its so very hard to pick the greatest fighter of all time. but i think Ali stands alone above all. At the same time you can only be The Best of Your Time 1 ALI 2 LOUIS 3 TUNNEY 4 JOHNSON 5 MARCIANIO 6 HOLMES 7 DEMPSEY its impossable LOL. so i wont go on. When i try to judge a fight i work it over 10 bouts i think in most cases any of the above would beat Ali in 3 fights out of the 10 most underated Charles and Walcott. No one would meet Walcott at his peak. and the public never forgave Charles for beating there hero Louis. love to have seen Walcott fight Marciano when the old Walcott was at his peak.

08-29-2002, 05:01 PM	#7
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Ahhh, Tunney. I almost listed him in the poll....probably should've. I only put Lewis in there because I've read lately that in some minds, his win over Tyson puts him in a whole other field and among the best heavyweights ever. I wouldn't say that... ...maybe if he beat the Tyson that demolished Spinks....now THAT would've impressed me. __________________ CornerWork

09-03-2002, 10:53 PM	#8
Mark Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 64	Had Tyson not gone off the rails, I figure he may have been talked about in the same revered tones as we now speak of Ali. The main difference was the strength of opposition. Many of the contemporaries of Ali's era were great fighters in their own right and, had it not been for Ali, may have held the World Title. Tyson's opposition was never near the overall quality of that which Ali had to contend with. Still, all you can do is beat your opponent, regardless of their standard. That's why I think Tyson 'coulda been a contendah' as one of the greatest in the sports history. As it stands, he bares up as one of the sports greatest embarassments.

09-04-2002, 11:04 AM	#9
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I couldn't agree with you more, Mark __________________ CornerWork

09-20-2002, 06:26 PM	#10
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	Looks like Ali's winning in a runaway! And it should be! __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

09-20-2002, 06:34 PM	#11
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I honestly expected more votes for Joe Louis.....oh well.... __________________ CornerWork

09-30-2002, 12:26 AM	#12
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	Here are my all-time ratings for heavies in their prime, Ali-Combination of foot and hand speed, boxing ability, defense. solid chin and solid power made him unbeatable. Johnson-Similar to Ali but without the footspeed and an unreliable chin. Holmes-Similar to Ali but less footspeed and less effective defense. Tyson-In his prime his combination of handspeed, decent defense and great power made him one of the best. Louis Great handspeed and power. Tunney-A 1920's version of Ali. Marciano and Dempsey - poor quality of opposition makes them slightly suspect in my view.

09-30-2002, 11:23 AM	#13
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	You know, Ali's cocky attitude and the way he kept his hands lowered was his biggest drawback, in my opinion. Look what Henry Cooper did....I watched a film of the fight, and many people say that after Cooper floored Ali, Ali was very dazed and if the round wasn't almost over, Ali might not have made it. I listened to Ali talk about the fight...saying he was just going along, doing his thing, and all of a sudden, BAM! He didn't know what happened! __________________ CornerWork

09-30-2002, 01:10 PM	#14
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	Ali became more careful as he got older so he didn't get surprised as often. After that Cooper fight he was down only two other times: once in 1971 against Frazier and once against Chuck Wepner. I don't agree that Ali's style with his hands lowered was a drawback at all. Many great boxers keep their front hand down as it improves the speed of their jab. For examples, Thomas Hearns, Larry Holmes and Archie Moore. You get a lot more snap in the jab if you bring it up and out than simply straight out.

10-01-2002, 06:36 PM	#16
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I totally agree with you about Lewis. I said earlier in this thread that the only reason I put him in is because there was some crazy opinions going around that his win over Tyson put him among the best all time. I think that is crazy. If Lewis beat the Tyson that showed up to fight Spinks....then that would impress me. Also, Lewis' chin sometimes doesn't show up with him to the fight! A little too "up and down" to be an all time great. __________________ CornerWork