HOF or not?

rudel.dietrich · 01-26-2005, 03:16 PM

This might lead to an interesting disscussion. I put him into the HOF. Would you?

<TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Year</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>AB</TD><TD>H</TD><TD>2B</TD><TD>3B</TD><TD>HR</TD><TD>RBI</TD><TD>R</TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>K</TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>CS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD><TD class=s3>Teams</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2063</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.167</TD><TD>.271</TD><TD>.286</TD><TD>.557</TD><TD class=s3_2>CHA MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2064</TD><TD>43</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>.234</TD><TD>.327</TD><TD>.350</TD><TD>.677</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2065</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>448</TD><TD>105</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>90</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>.234</TD><TD>.364</TD><TD>.364</TD><TD>.727</TD><TD class=s3_2>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2066</TD><TD>158</TD><TD>580</TD><TD>153</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>110</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>100</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>.264</TD><TD>.348</TD><TD>.462</TD><TD>.810</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2067</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>531</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>34</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>114</TD><TD>94</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>.279</TD><TD>.387</TD><TD>.493</TD><TD>.881</TD><TD class=s3_2>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2068</TD><TD>128</TD><TD>434</TD><TD>122</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>83</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>.281</TD><TD>.397</TD><TD>.546</TD><TD>.943</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2069</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>582</TD><TD>179</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>136</TD><TD>111</TD><TD>74</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>.308</TD><TD>.418</TD><TD>.572</TD><TD>.991</TD><TD class=s3_2>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2070</TD><TD>160</TD><TD>588</TD><TD>189</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>115</TD><TD>118</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>.321</TD><TD>.435</TD><TD>.556</TD><TD>.991</TD><TD class=s3>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2071</TD><TD>150</TD><TD>548</TD><TD>164</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>.299</TD><TD>.414</TD><TD>.615</TD><TD>1.029</TD><TD class=s3_2>SEA</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2072</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>610</TD><TD>183</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>30</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>.300</TD><TD>.402</TD><TD>.577</TD><TD>.979</TD><TD class=s3>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2073</TD><TD>160</TD><TD>568</TD><TD>181</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>134</TD><TD>129</TD><TD>73</TD><TD>83</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>.319</TD><TD>.445</TD><TD>.600</TD><TD>1.045</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2074</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.423</TD><TD>.500</TD><TD>.846</TD><TD>1.346</TD><TD class=s3>OAK</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2075</TD><TD>131</TD><TD>493</TD><TD>146</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>99</TD><TD>103</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>.296</TD><TD>.390</TD><TD>.594</TD><TD>.984</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2076</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>613</TD><TD>214</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>147</TD><TD>149</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>.349</TD><TD>.444</TD><TD>.708</TD><TD>1.152</TD><TD class=s3>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2077</TD><TD>158</TD><TD>583</TD><TD>209</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>142</TD><TD>139</TD><TD>116</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>.358</TD><TD>.465</TD><TD>.703</TD><TD>1.168</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Total</TD><TD>1889</TD><TD>6783</TD><TD>2043</TD><TD>488</TD><TD>111</TD><TD>362</TD><TD>1178</TD><TD>1446</TD><TD>1237</TD><TD>962</TD><TD>797</TD><TD>232</TD><TD>.301</TD><TD>.409</TD><TD>.566</TD><TD>.975</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=s1><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s4>AVG

2069 - .308 - 9th
2070 - .321 - 4th
2073 - .319 - 3rd
2076 - .349 - 1st
2077 - .358 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>OBP

2067 - .387 - 9th
2068 - .397 - 3rd
2069 - .418 - 2nd
2070 - .435 - 1st
2071 - .414 - 3rd
2072 - .402 - 3rd
2073 - .445 - 1st
2075 - .390 - 3rd
2076 - .444 - 1st
2077 - .465 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>SLG

2068 - .546 - 10th
2069 - .572 - 2nd
2070 - .556 - 2nd
2071 - .615 - 1st
2072 - .577 - 3rd
2073 - .600 - 1st
2075 - .594 - 2nd
2076 - .708 - 1st
2077 - .703 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>OPS

2068 - .943 - 5th
2069 - .991 - 2nd
2070 - .991 - 1st
2071 - 1.029 - 1st
2072 - .979 - 2nd
2073 - 1.045 - 1st
2075 - .984 - 1st
2076 - 1.152 - 1st
2077 - 1.168 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>Hits

2069 - 179 - 9th
2070 - 189 - 4th
2072 - 183 - 6th
2073 - 181 - 9th
2076 - 214 - 1st
2077 - 209 - 1st

</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s4>Doubles

2070 - 46 - 5th
2072 - 45 - 6th
2076 - 45 - 4th
2077 - 55 - 3rd

</TD><TD class=s4>Triples

2066 - 11 - 3rd
2067 - 10 - 3rd
2072 - 17 - 1st
2076 - 11 - 4th

</TD><TD class=s4>Homeruns

2069 - 32 - 5th
2071 - 39 - 2nd
2072 - 30 - 10th
2073 - 35 - 3rd
2075 - 32 - 6th
2076 - 51 - 2nd
2077 - 46 - 2nd

</TD><TD class=s4>RBI

2069 - 104 - 9th
2070 - 102 - 8th
2071 - 112 - 5th
2072 - 107 - 7th
2073 - 112 - 5th
2075 - 99 - 10th
2076 - 147 - 1st
2077 - 142 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>Runs

2066 - 110 - 7th
2067 - 114 - 2nd
2069 - 136 - 1st
2070 - 115 - 3rd
2071 - 112 - 4th
2072 - 112 - 2nd
2073 - 134 - 1st
2075 - 103 - 4th
2076 - 149 - 1st
2077 - 139 - 1st

</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s4>BB

2065 - 91 - 4th
2067 - 94 - 2nd
2068 - 83 - 9th
2069 - 111 - 1st
2070 - 118 - 1st
2071 - 107 - 2nd
2072 - 104 - 2nd
2073 - 129 - 1st
2076 - 104 - 1st
2077 - 116 - 1st

</TD><TD class=s4>SB

2065 - 69 - 1st
2066 - 68 - 1st
2067 - 68 - 2nd
2068 - 42 - 9th
2069 - 85 - 1st
2070 - 66 - 1st
2071 - 61 - 1st
2072 - 61 - 2nd
2073 - 83 - 1st
2075 - 55 - 3rd
2076 - 69 - 1st
2077 - 48 - 4th

</TD><TD class=s4></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Edit:

Three gold gloves at shortstop but winshares credit him with six
No championships because he played on ****ty teams
Three MVP's but winshares credit him with five and tied for a sixth but they take away one of the ones he did win

He retired at 37.
He was in the minor leagues forever because he sucked at first but kept getting talent bumps.

jeheinz72 · 01-26-2005, 03:18 PM

That's tough. He was cut down right when having his best 2-year run.

Any gold gloves or championships to note?

Milverton · 01-26-2005, 03:39 PM

I don't know what the rest of your HOFers look like in a league that has been running a long time. It is a hard call. If he was one of those players that was certainly one of the best in the game while he played, I think he makes it. His leaderboard suggests that he probably was "One of those guys that people come to the park to watch play".

Bluenoser · 01-26-2005, 03:43 PM

Need more information than just his stats.

As Milverton said, what's the rest of your HOF'ers like?

What is your HOF criteria for entry?

Based just on what I can see, I would not elect him to the HOF.

rudel.dietrich · 01-26-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

Need more information than just his stats.

As Milverton said, what's the rest of your HOF'ers like?

What is your HOF criteria for entry?

Based just on what I can see, I would not elect him to the HOF.

HOF standerd puts him at 53 with 50 being an average HOF

7/10 of his most similar players are HOF players and 1 still has a carrer going on.

On the carrer leader board he is 16th in triples and 3rd in SB

SandMan · 01-26-2005, 03:44 PM

I would say yes. But I am one who also feel that players like Darrell Evans should be in the hall.

Your guy was very good at a few things that stand out, although a composite of his career stats does not make him stand out against other in the hall probably. He is probably is a B-Class or C-Class HOF candidate.

A being a definite - probably the best all time at his postion or one of the best.

B being a very good player for a long time or possibly being in the top 10 or so at his postion.

C being a player with a shorter career but during his peak seasons could have been one of the best players in the league at his time or a player that if were given more years earlier in his career would rate much higher. (ex. Jackie Robinson)

With out seeing the league stats I would guess him to be a C candidate and worthy of the hall...but just marginally.

rudel.dietrich · 01-26-2005, 03:48 PM

Just to show you how long he was in the minors. He was drafted at 18

<TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Year</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>AB</TD><TD>H</TD><TD>2B</TD><TD>3B</TD><TD>HR</TD><TD>RBI</TD><TD>R</TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>K</TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>CS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2059, A</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>156</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.288</TD><TD>.339</TD><TD>.372</TD><TD>.711</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2060, A</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.308</TD><TD>.391</TD><TD>.385</TD><TD>.776</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2061, A</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>251</TD><TD>93</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>.371</TD><TD>.428</TD><TD>.546</TD><TD>.973</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2061, AA</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.250</TD><TD>.400</TD><TD>.250</TD><TD>.650</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2062, A</TD><TD>125</TD><TD>493</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>89</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>.329</TD><TD>.427</TD><TD>.471</TD><TD>.897</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2062, AA</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.263</TD><TD>.333</TD><TD>.474</TD><TD>.807</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2063, AA</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>110</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>.291</TD><TD>.415</TD><TD>.418</TD><TD>.833</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2063, AAA</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>202</TD><TD>49</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.243</TD><TD>.340</TD><TD>.381</TD><TD>.722</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2064, AAA</TD><TD>116</TD><TD>444</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>92</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>.241</TD><TD>.369</TD><TD>.390</TD><TD>.758</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

jeheinz72 · 01-26-2005, 04:02 PM

3 GGs and 3 MVPs mean he is in for me. How many 3-time MVPs wouldn't be?

Bald Eagles · 01-26-2005, 04:35 PM

I think he'd make it in his last year of eligibilty, if OOTP HOF was like the real HOF where you had two men go per year and had eligibility for it based on (of course) editable criteria. That and he should have played a few more seasons to solidify the HOF candidacy.

dougaiton · 01-26-2005, 04:39 PM

Presuming park effects are negligible, and a decent number of teams, for 9 years this guy was the best hitter in his league. IN.

jmel07 · 01-26-2005, 04:47 PM

9 years doesn't do it for me. HOFers should do it for a good stretch over 10. Just the opinion of the assinine sportswriters out there for the real HOF.

Bluenoser · 01-26-2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Presuming park effects are negligible, and a decent number of teams, for 9 years this guy was the best hitter in his league. IN.

Which 9 years were those?

He won 2 Batting titles
4 times had best Obp and Slg
6 Times led in Ops
Twice led in hits, speaking of which only twice in his career did he top 200 hits in a season. Not coincidently he won the batting title those 2 years.

A .301 career Avg with just over 2000 hits doesn't cut it for me. The only thing that even made me consider him for more than a few seconds was the 797 career SB's.

danwaechter · 01-26-2005, 05:01 PM

I'd put him in without hesitation. First of all, he finished his career with 2 absolutely sick seasons where he was probably undoubtedly the best in the game. 3 MVP's, 3 GG's. 3rd all time in stolen bases. If he's a first basemen, he's borderline, but taking into consideration he's a shortstop, he's gotta be in. I don't know the league, but I'm assuming he's probably one of the best players(if not the best) at that position that the league has seen.

jazzrack · 01-26-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danwaechter

I'd put him in without hesitation. First of all, he finished his career with 2 absolutely sick seasons where he was probably undoubtedly the best in the game. 3 MVP's, 3 GG's. 3rd all time in stolen bases. If he's a first basemen, he's borderline, but taking into consideration he's a shortstop, he's gotta be in. I don't know the league, but I'm assuming he's probably one of the best players(if not the best) at that position that the league has seen.

yeppers

jeheinz72 · 01-26-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danwaechter

I'd put him in without hesitation. First of all, he finished his career with 2 absolutely sick seasons where he was probably undoubtedly the best in the game. 3 MVP's, 3 GG's. 3rd all time in stolen bases. If he's a first basemen, he's borderline, but taking into consideration he's a shortstop, he's gotta be in. I don't know the league, but I'm assuming he's probably one of the best players(if not the best) at that position that the league has seen.

Bingo! The SS factor makes it a lock. How many 3-time MVP SS's are there? Even if there are some, how many aren't in the Hall of Fame? Also, he didn't just steal bases, he did it efficiently (77.5%). Plus the 3 gold gloves.

As you said, if he is a 1B or even a CF, I could see if being a judgment call, but to hit like that from SS and play great D? That's HOF material. He's a ring short of a 1st ballot guy, IMO.

jaxmagicman · 01-26-2005, 05:11 PM

I would.

SandMan · 01-26-2005, 05:12 PM

I see two monster years, 8 very good years in this career, with a ton of SB. I still say vote him in but he is lacking in most of the criteria to make him a shoo-in, barely over the 2000 hit mark, well under the 500 homer mark, just barely over the .300 mark. Unless he sparkles on defense he is just a marginal HOF candidate. I still like him enough to be enshrined but I don't see him as an all-time great. Kinda like comparing Tony Oliva to Babe Ruth.

TheRockCT · 01-26-2005, 05:14 PM

I put him in, too. Seems to be a dominant player of his era to win those MVP's, he put together some nice "all-around" seasons. .301 lifetime hitter with power, defense, patience, and speed? That's HOF-material, definitely. Most of the "total" stats are borderline, but I'd put him in about 300 times before I'd look at Derek Jeter.

jeheinz72 · 01-26-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

Which 9 years were those?

He won 2 Batting titles
4 times had best Obp and Slg
6 Times led in Ops
Twice led in hits, speaking of which only twice in his career did he top 200 hits in a season. Not coincidently he won the batting title those 2 years.

A .301 career Avg with just over 2000 hits doesn't cut it for me. The only thing that even made me consider him for more than a few seconds was the 797 career SB's.

200 hits is a lot harder when you are 1st or 2nd in walks 8 times. Though he even managed to do it twice. He reached base about 250 times per year in what amounts to about 13 seasons.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 01-26-2005, 05:25 PM

In, no question.

01-26-2005, 03:16 PM	#1
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	HOF or not? This might lead to an interesting disscussion. I put him into the HOF. Would you? <TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Year</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>AB</TD><TD>H</TD><TD>2B</TD><TD>3B</TD><TD>HR</TD><TD>RBI</TD><TD>R</TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>K</TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>CS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD><TD class=s3>Teams</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2063</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.167</TD><TD>.271</TD><TD>.286</TD><TD>.557</TD><TD class=s3_2>CHA MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2064</TD><TD>43</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>.234</TD><TD>.327</TD><TD>.350</TD><TD>.677</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2065</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>448</TD><TD>105</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>90</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>.234</TD><TD>.364</TD><TD>.364</TD><TD>.727</TD><TD class=s3_2>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2066</TD><TD>158</TD><TD>580</TD><TD>153</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>110</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>100</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>.264</TD><TD>.348</TD><TD>.462</TD><TD>.810</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2067</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>531</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>34</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>114</TD><TD>94</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>.279</TD><TD>.387</TD><TD>.493</TD><TD>.881</TD><TD class=s3_2>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2068</TD><TD>128</TD><TD>434</TD><TD>122</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>83</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>.281</TD><TD>.397</TD><TD>.546</TD><TD>.943</TD><TD class=s3>MIL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2069</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>582</TD><TD>179</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>136</TD><TD>111</TD><TD>74</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>.308</TD><TD>.418</TD><TD>.572</TD><TD>.991</TD><TD class=s3_2>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2070</TD><TD>160</TD><TD>588</TD><TD>189</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>115</TD><TD>118</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>.321</TD><TD>.435</TD><TD>.556</TD><TD>.991</TD><TD class=s3>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2071</TD><TD>150</TD><TD>548</TD><TD>164</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>.299</TD><TD>.414</TD><TD>.615</TD><TD>1.029</TD><TD class=s3_2>SEA</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2072</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>610</TD><TD>183</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>30</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>.300</TD><TD>.402</TD><TD>.577</TD><TD>.979</TD><TD class=s3>SEA,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2073</TD><TD>160</TD><TD>568</TD><TD>181</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>112</TD><TD>134</TD><TD>129</TD><TD>73</TD><TD>83</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>.319</TD><TD>.445</TD><TD>.600</TD><TD>1.045</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2074</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.423</TD><TD>.500</TD><TD>.846</TD><TD>1.346</TD><TD class=s3>OAK</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2075</TD><TD>131</TD><TD>493</TD><TD>146</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>99</TD><TD>103</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>.296</TD><TD>.390</TD><TD>.594</TD><TD>.984</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2076</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>613</TD><TD>214</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>147</TD><TD>149</TD><TD>104</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>.349</TD><TD>.444</TD><TD>.708</TD><TD>1.152</TD><TD class=s3>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2077</TD><TD>158</TD><TD>583</TD><TD>209</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>142</TD><TD>139</TD><TD>116</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>.358</TD><TD>.465</TD><TD>.703</TD><TD>1.168</TD><TD class=s3_2>OAK,AL</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Total</TD><TD>1889</TD><TD>6783</TD><TD>2043</TD><TD>488</TD><TD>111</TD><TD>362</TD><TD>1178</TD><TD>1446</TD><TD>1237</TD><TD>962</TD><TD>797</TD><TD>232</TD><TD>.301</TD><TD>.409</TD><TD>.566</TD><TD>.975</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <TABLE class=s1><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s4>AVG 2069 - .308 - 9th 2070 - .321 - 4th 2073 - .319 - 3rd 2076 - .349 - 1st 2077 - .358 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>OBP 2067 - .387 - 9th 2068 - .397 - 3rd 2069 - .418 - 2nd 2070 - .435 - 1st 2071 - .414 - 3rd 2072 - .402 - 3rd 2073 - .445 - 1st 2075 - .390 - 3rd 2076 - .444 - 1st 2077 - .465 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>SLG 2068 - .546 - 10th 2069 - .572 - 2nd 2070 - .556 - 2nd 2071 - .615 - 1st 2072 - .577 - 3rd 2073 - .600 - 1st 2075 - .594 - 2nd 2076 - .708 - 1st 2077 - .703 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>OPS 2068 - .943 - 5th 2069 - .991 - 2nd 2070 - .991 - 1st 2071 - 1.029 - 1st 2072 - .979 - 2nd 2073 - 1.045 - 1st 2075 - .984 - 1st 2076 - 1.152 - 1st 2077 - 1.168 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>Hits 2069 - 179 - 9th 2070 - 189 - 4th 2072 - 183 - 6th 2073 - 181 - 9th 2076 - 214 - 1st 2077 - 209 - 1st </TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s4>Doubles 2070 - 46 - 5th 2072 - 45 - 6th 2076 - 45 - 4th 2077 - 55 - 3rd </TD><TD class=s4>Triples 2066 - 11 - 3rd 2067 - 10 - 3rd 2072 - 17 - 1st 2076 - 11 - 4th </TD><TD class=s4>Homeruns 2069 - 32 - 5th 2071 - 39 - 2nd 2072 - 30 - 10th 2073 - 35 - 3rd 2075 - 32 - 6th 2076 - 51 - 2nd 2077 - 46 - 2nd </TD><TD class=s4>RBI 2069 - 104 - 9th 2070 - 102 - 8th 2071 - 112 - 5th 2072 - 107 - 7th 2073 - 112 - 5th 2075 - 99 - 10th 2076 - 147 - 1st 2077 - 142 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>Runs 2066 - 110 - 7th 2067 - 114 - 2nd 2069 - 136 - 1st 2070 - 115 - 3rd 2071 - 112 - 4th 2072 - 112 - 2nd 2073 - 134 - 1st 2075 - 103 - 4th 2076 - 149 - 1st 2077 - 139 - 1st </TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s4>BB 2065 - 91 - 4th 2067 - 94 - 2nd 2068 - 83 - 9th 2069 - 111 - 1st 2070 - 118 - 1st 2071 - 107 - 2nd 2072 - 104 - 2nd 2073 - 129 - 1st 2076 - 104 - 1st 2077 - 116 - 1st </TD><TD class=s4>SB 2065 - 69 - 1st 2066 - 68 - 1st 2067 - 68 - 2nd 2068 - 42 - 9th 2069 - 85 - 1st 2070 - 66 - 1st 2071 - 61 - 1st 2072 - 61 - 2nd 2073 - 83 - 1st 2075 - 55 - 3rd 2076 - 69 - 1st 2077 - 48 - 4th </TD><TD class=s4></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Edit: Three gold gloves at shortstop but winshares credit him with six No championships because he played on ***ty teams Three MVP's but winshares credit him with five and tied for a sixth but they take away one of the ones he did win He retired at 37. He was in the minor leagues forever because he sucked at first but kept getting talent bumps. Last edited by rudel.dietrich; 01-26-2005 at 03:23 PM.*

01-26-2005, 03:39 PM	#3
Milverton Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Portland, ME Posts: 64	I don't know what the rest of your HOFers look like in a league that has been running a long time. It is a hard call. If he was one of those players that was certainly one of the best in the game while he played, I think he makes it. His leaderboard suggests that he probably was "One of those guys that people come to the park to watch play". __________________ Into the great wide open

01-26-2005, 04:39 PM	#10
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Presuming park effects are negligible, and a decent number of teams, for 9 years this guy was the best hitter in his league. IN. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

01-26-2005, 05:11 PM	#16
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	I would. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

01-26-2005, 05:14 PM	#18
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	I put him in, too. Seems to be a dominant player of his era to win those MVP's, he put together some nice "all-around" seasons. .301 lifetime hitter with power, defense, patience, and speed? That's HOF-material, definitely. Most of the "total" stats are borderline, but I'd put him in about 300 times before I'd look at Derek Jeter. __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA *NABA Champions: 2013

01-26-2005, 03:18 PM	#2
jeheinz72 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 2,163	That's tough. He was cut down right when having his best 2-year run. Any gold gloves or championships to note?

01-26-2005, 03:43 PM	#4
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,138	Need more information than just his stats. As Milverton said, what's the rest of your HOF'ers like? What is your HOF criteria for entry? Based just on what I can see, I would not elect him to the HOF.

01-26-2005, 03:44 PM	#6
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	I would say yes. But I am one who also feel that players like Darrell Evans should be in the hall. Your guy was very good at a few things that stand out, although a composite of his career stats does not make him stand out against other in the hall probably. He is probably is a B-Class or C-Class HOF candidate. A being a definite - probably the best all time at his postion or one of the best. B being a very good player for a long time or possibly being in the top 10 or so at his postion. C being a player with a shorter career but during his peak seasons could have been one of the best players in the league at his time or a player that if were given more years earlier in his career would rate much higher. (ex. Jackie Robinson) With out seeing the league stats I would guess him to be a C candidate and worthy of the hall...but just marginally.

01-26-2005, 03:48 PM	#7
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	Just to show you how long he was in the minors. He was drafted at 18 <TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g><TD class=s1>Year</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>AB</TD><TD>H</TD><TD>2B</TD><TD>3B</TD><TD>HR</TD><TD>RBI</TD><TD>R</TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>K</TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>CS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <TABLE class=s0><TBODY><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2059, A</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>156</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>23</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.288</TD><TD>.339</TD><TD>.372</TD><TD>.711</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2060, A</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.308</TD><TD>.391</TD><TD>.385</TD><TD>.776</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2061, A</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>251</TD><TD>93</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>.371</TD><TD>.428</TD><TD>.546</TD><TD>.973</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2061, AA</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.250</TD><TD>.400</TD><TD>.250</TD><TD>.650</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2062, A</TD><TD>125</TD><TD>493</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>89</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>.329</TD><TD>.427</TD><TD>.471</TD><TD>.897</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2062, AA</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.263</TD><TD>.333</TD><TD>.474</TD><TD>.807</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2063, AA</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>110</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>.291</TD><TD>.415</TD><TD>.418</TD><TD>.833</TD></TR><TR class=g><TD class=s1>2063, AAA</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>202</TD><TD>49</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>39</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>.243</TD><TD>.340</TD><TD>.381</TD><TD>.722</TD></TR><TR class=g2><TD class=s1_2>2064, AAA</TD><TD>116</TD><TD>444</TD><TD>107</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>92</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>.241</TD><TD>.369</TD><TD>.390</TD><TD>.758</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

01-26-2005, 04:02 PM	#8
jeheinz72 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 2,163	3 GGs and 3 MVPs mean he is in for me. How many 3-time MVPs wouldn't be?

01-26-2005, 04:35 PM	#9
Bald Eagles Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Waveland & Sheffield Posts: 402	I think he'd make it in his last year of eligibilty, if OOTP HOF was like the real HOF where you had two men go per year and had eligibility for it based on (of course) editable criteria. That and he should have played a few more seasons to solidify the HOF candidacy.

01-26-2005, 04:47 PM	#11
jmel07 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 136	9 years doesn't do it for me. HOFers should do it for a good stretch over 10. Just the opinion of the assinine sportswriters out there for the real HOF.

01-26-2005, 05:01 PM	#13
danwaechter Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 67	I'd put him in without hesitation. First of all, he finished his career with 2 absolutely sick seasons where he was probably undoubtedly the best in the game. 3 MVP's, 3 GG's. 3rd all time in stolen bases. If he's a first basemen, he's borderline, but taking into consideration he's a shortstop, he's gotta be in. I don't know the league, but I'm assuming he's probably one of the best players(if not the best) at that position that the league has seen.

01-26-2005, 05:12 PM	#17
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	I see two monster years, 8 very good years in this career, with a ton of SB. I still say vote him in but he is lacking in most of the criteria to make him a shoo-in, barely over the 2000 hit mark, well under the 500 homer mark, just barely over the .300 mark. Unless he sparkles on defense he is just a marginal HOF candidate. I still like him enough to be enshrined but I don't see him as an all-time great. Kinda like comparing Tony Oliva to Babe Ruth.

01-26-2005, 05:25 PM	#20
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	In, no question. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.