Football Sims

[baseball99]

I know about FOF and TPF 2004 games for text-based sims. Are there any other games out there that have the following:

1. Fictitional players
2. Manage-only instead of playing
3. Career-based

Also, is there ever going to be a sequel to TPF?

[Steve Kuffrey]

http://www.roogames.co.uk/SAT.html - good game IMO but no career mode
http://www.dksports.com/football.htm - good game, has VERY weak career mode

[Anachronism]

What every happened to front page sports football? That game was simple, smooth, and had the beginnings of a good career mode.

And has anybody done Maximum Football?

[Number 6]

Originally Posted by Anachronism

And has anybody done Maximum Football?

Matrix Gamers are planning to publish it. It looks interesting, but no career mode is planned for the first release.

http://www.maximum-football.com/

[Marty P]

Originally Posted by Steve Kuffrey

http://www.roogames.co.uk/SAT.html - good game IMO but no career mode
http://www.dksports.com/football.htm - good game, has VERY weak career mode

the dksports games don't look bad.

thanks for the on the URLs.

[Cardinal Rule]

Originally Posted by Anachronism

What every happened to front page sports football? That game was simple, smooth, and had the beginnings of a good career mode.

To me, nothing since has come close. I was heavily involved in FPS Football from 1995-1999, ran some online leagues and played in many many more. By itself FPS 98 was the most stable, playable of their games and I'd consider it a reasonable simulation of football, although over the course of many seasons the accuracy of the statistical engine and thus the playability would suffer as the player development and draft talent algorithms would start topping out.

Combined with 3rd party utilities made by folks like Lorne Sundby (the King!), Shaun Sullivan, Gelat, and later the VPNFL crew - this game was and probably still is the best combination of all facets of football sims. Reasonably accurate statistics, graphical representation that wouldn't stress anyone's setup (but also wouldn't come close to the current standards in Madden or ESPN), a full stock playbook and the ability to design plays with few limitations, lots of statistics, and an overall feel of realism that I personally haven't felt since.

When Sierra released FPBRO99, it was fatally buggy. They recalled it, and then scrapped the game and canned the entire development team and division, just before they were bought out. Thus the death of FBPRO. For years many continued to play, and there is still a core of gamers that continue to play it in online leagues, although they are very scarce. There were many attempts by folks with programming experience to contact Sierra and buy the code, with no success.

I have no doubt if Shaun Sullivan had tackled creating a football sim it would have been as equally impressive as his fine baseball sim.

This is not to say that some of the current offerings aren't solid, but as yet I have been unable to recapture the 'immersion factor' that FBPRO inspired.

[BradS]

To have a football sim with the gameplay strategy and engine of APCF. And a career or player generation model such as OOTP would be too good to be true and unfortunately is for pigskin fans.

[Cardinal Rule]

Originally Posted by Number 6

Matrix Gamers are planning to publish it. It looks interesting, but no career mode is planned for the first release.

http://www.maximum-football.com/

For anyone following this thread, apparently Maximum Football has added a career mode. See this thread: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ad.php?t=89202

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

There were many attempts by folks with programming experience to contact Sierra and buy the code, with no success.

There's a thread over at the FootballPro United forums claiming that the code for FBPro 98 and 99 will soon be "in hand".

Don't know how much faith I should put in that, but it'd be kinda cool if it were true.

[Cardinal Rule]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

There's a thread over at the FootballPro United forums claiming that the code for FBPro 98 and 99 will soon be "in hand".

Don't know how much faith I should put in that, but it'd be kinda cool if it were true.

I'm with you on both counts. I've seen similar statements before, but if they do get the code I'd be both impressed and pleased.

[eriqjaffe]

Another one to keep an eye on is Division Rivals. It's not nearly as far along as MaximumFB, but they've been planning on career mode from the beginning.

Also, they intend on letting you play at the HS or College levels, as well. Maybe too ambitious, but...

[BradS]

Anyone heard of this game: "Playmakers"


http://sports.ign.com/articles/572/572886p1.html

[Number 6]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

For anyone following this thread, apparently Maximum Football has added a career mode. See this thread: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ad.php?t=89202

Yes I noticed that when I visited the Matrix forums a few days ago, but I forgot to report back here. Sorry .

[Johnny Slick]

What's up with all these games including mega-features? There is a lesson that ought to be learned from the relative failures of TPF and, by contrast, the success of FPS for so long despite the fact that it was basically the same game (actually, buggier) in 1999 that it was in 1992. If you build a good football sim that's playable, people will come to buy it. That's all. You don't need snazzy 3D graphics or the ability to play as the Interlake High School Saints and recreate the entire career of Tom Flick. You just need a good core game that recreates the feel and realism of American football (sorry, Canadians) well. Anything else is gravy, and gravy poured over a bunch of rancid meat still tastes mostly like rancid meat.

[Cardinal Rule]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

What's up with all these games including mega-features? There is a lesson that ought to be learned from the relative failures of TPF and, by contrast, the success of FPS for so long despite the fact that it was basically the same game (actually, buggier) in 1999 that it was in 1992. If you build a good football sim that's playable, people will come to buy it. That's all. You don't need snazzy 3D graphics or the ability to play as the Interlake High School Saints and recreate the entire career of Tom Flick. You just need a good core game that recreates the feel and realism of American football (sorry, Canadians) well. Anything else is gravy, and gravy poured over a bunch of rancid meat still tastes mostly like rancid meat.

Your point is noted, and I agree with some of what you say. You can't make a bad game better just by adding more 'features'. However, I would disagree that feature-rich games can't be successful. There are really two standards to look at - first what is the competition. There's FOF, TPF, and a few others. If you want to join the fray, you have to look at what your competitors do well and try to include that, as well as looking at what they don't do well and avoiding or fixing that. Second is, for most of the games in the text-sim genre, continually improving the customizability and flexibility. You have to understand that the so-called 'joystick jockeys' will always gravitate to the Madden world and your target audience is the stat-head. And we should all know by now the stat-heads want all these customizable features, but you better be able to toggle them on or off because what one wants the next doesn't.

I'll tell you, the success of FBPro in the stat-head world was mostly an unintended result. The game was originally thought to be a competitor in the Madden world and was given only average marks in most reviews because of the lack of eye-candy that was in Madden. What FBPro did was push forward to the folks at EA and others that statistical accuracy was important and that gamers of almost any category were tired of 84-3 Tecmo Bowl scores.

In any event, from what I've seen David (Maximum Football) has taken many of the suggestions from his board and tried to put together a game that would meet many gamers needs. It remains to be seen whether this game will deliver but at the least it is has lots of potential.

[Anachronism]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

You just need a good core game that recreates the feel and realism of American football (sorry, Canadians) well. Anything else is gravy, and gravy poured over a bunch of rancid meat still tastes mostly like rancid meat.

I would be seriously disappointed if the game did not have CFL rules.... I honestly prefer the CFL over the NFL, and will choose to watch an Ottawa - Saskatchewan game before any NFL game... I saw, I don't know, maybe 20 CFL games this year, and I think I've seen maybe 2 or 3 NFL games.... I was a big fan of both leagues, but fell out of watching the NFL when the game started to become more about the "production value" and about "who can dance the best" after making a routine play.

Besides, using a marketing quote... we have bigger balls.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

What's up with all these games including mega-features? There is a lesson that ought to be learned from the relative failures of TPF and, by contrast, the success of FPS for so long despite the fact that it was basically the same game (actually, buggier) in 1999 that it was in 1992. If you build a good football sim that's playable, people will come to buy it. That's all. You don't need snazzy 3D graphics or the ability to play as the Interlake High School Saints and recreate the entire career of Tom Flick. You just need a good core game that recreates the feel and realism of American football (sorry, Canadians) well. Anything else is gravy, and gravy poured over a bunch of rancid meat still tastes mostly like rancid meat.

I know that this may be a little off topic, but I followed Tom Flick's career from his days as a Husky (we went to school together at the UW). I later met him in 2001 at a Coaches Conference in Olympia, Washington put on by Pro Athelets Outreach (a Christian Organization that is run by Norm Evans and that my wife worked for at the time). I was very impressed by how humble the man was. I also met Don James and Jim Zorn. They were extrememly friendly and quite humble. Excellent witnesses and very enjoyable to get to know.

I do agree however that having the ability to play with High School teams is very low (if it even exists) on my priority list....

[jcwean]

It seems that with this exclusive NFL Licensing Agreement (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/12...s_6114977.html) going to one place that it opens up the possibility of career based game with alternative players and league much more likely.

The BLITZ: PLAYMAKERS game (based upon the players from the TV show the NFL hated) appears to be one example. Why not a ANY GIVEN SUNDAY game picking up where the movie ended (with Pacino taking over another team and taking Willie Beamon with him).

But also it provides a HUGE opportunity for other leagues (CFL, AFL) to market. I can't tell you how many kids 8 - 10 became Broncos fans because Clinton Portis was incredibile in EA's Madden franchise (and I live in NJ for reference). My point being that if CFL and the AFL put together HOT video game that focused on and marketed their most exciting and electricfying players they MAY gain a few new fans.

Of course, my dream idea would be to have a game that represented the true talent landscape and had college, NFL, AFL, CFL all existing. With the NFL occassionally plucking talent from the AFL and CFL while the CFL and AFL fighting for the college scraps. Also, TV ratings somehow represented.

[Steve Kuffrey]

AFL has signed a deal w/ EA already.

[Johnny Slick]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

Your point is noted, and I agree with some of what you say. You can't make a bad game better just by adding more 'features'. However, I would disagree that feature-rich games can't be successful. There are really two standards to look at - first what is the competition. There's FOF, TPF, and a few others.

TPF is actually one of the games I think of when I think "lots of features, not much playability." And it exemplifies the 2nd biggest downfall of working for features over the core game: the thing was ultra-buggy when it came out (it was probably released too soon, but you can't very well put out a football title in May and expect people to buy it) and many of the problems and "undocumented features" never were adequately addressed. The more stuff you put into a game, the more possible problems.

If you want to join the fray, you have to look at what your competitors do well and try to include that, as well as looking at what they don't do well and avoiding or fixing that. Second is, for most of the games in the text-sim genre, continually improving the customizability and flexibility. You have to understand that the so-called 'joystick jockeys' will always gravitate to the Madden world and your target audience is the stat-head. And we should all know by now the stat-heads want all these customizable features, but you better be able to toggle them on or off because what one wants the next doesn't.

I agree to a point, but the first thing the statheads want is a game to build all the customization around. Most people in this group will, I think, shell out money for several iterations of a game that lacks the features they'd really like to see if the game itself is fun to play. Look at the success of Title Bout. I'm sure a *lot* of people would like to have a strong career mode with it, but the game itself does what it does so well that you're seeing guys in effect creating their own career mode by creating "tomato cans" and so on.

Or even OOTP. There's still no financial coefficient and it's darn hard to make the Dead Ball Era work right, so for the people who are into historical sims, it's not perfect. But people grouse about it and then work around it.

On the other hand, you've got the old .400 Software Studio games. I am a huge basketball fan, and I have to say that TPB2k5 is without a doubt the best text b-ball sim ever created, but the first version was REALLY buggy.

I'll tell you, the success of FBPro in the stat-head world was mostly an unintended result. The game was originally thought to be a competitor in the Madden world and was given only average marks in most reviews because of the lack of eye-candy that was in Madden. What FBPro did was push forward to the folks at EA and others that statistical accuracy was important and that gamers of almost any category were tired of 84-3 Tecmo Bowl scores.

Statistical accuracy was *more* important, anyway. There was a lot wrong with FPS that Sierra/Dynamix never did fix.

In any event, from what I've seen David (Maximum Football) has taken many of the suggestions from his board and tried to put together a game that would meet many gamers needs. It remains to be seen whether this game will deliver but at the least it is has lots of potential.

I've seen the website, and I'm skeptical. For one, it's been vaporware for a LONG time - what are we talking now, 3 years? For another, it tries to do an awful lot. IMO there is a very large difference between arena football and the NFL. I guess you can model them similarly, but the strategy between the two represent different worlds. I'm not saying you can't do a Canadian football sim, I'm just saying that those guys would do well to wait a version or two to implement it and get the core American game down pat first.

For a third, I think it's too hung up on the graphical interface. As a text sim fan, I am okay with text. In fact, I prefer text to really horrible graphics, unless I'm playing a game from 1988 or something. TPB2k5's graphics make me wet myself (no, not really; it's just an expression). There's just enough there that you can get a picture in your mind's eye what is going on. I know these guys don't have $10 million budgets; I just prefer to not be reminded of that fact whenever I play.