Negro League Database

ctripp · 01-12-2005, 12:21 PM

Does anybody know of a historical database available for download that includes Negro Leaguers?

Thanks,

Charles

BigCity · 01-12-2005, 12:25 PM

I believe Cooleyvol has the closest thing to a database.

ctripp · 01-12-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCity

I believe Cooleyvol has the closest thing to a database.

Ok, thank you. DOes he have a web site or anything? I am coming back to OOTP after having been away since just after the release of OOTP 5.

Thanks,

Charles

ctorg · 01-12-2005, 12:57 PM

You can get it here:
http://www.tresclub.com/downloads/downloads.htm

disposableheros · 01-12-2005, 03:19 PM

i realize this is lazy, but im gonna do it anyway...

what kinda setup did they have (teams/divisions/leagues) and did they use any kinda modern transactions (FA/Rule 5/similar ideas)?

id like to try my first Negro League solo, but could use some guidance. anything i should be concerned about using cooley's rosters? any tips would be appreciated

seth70liz76 · 01-12-2005, 03:35 PM

Check out the classic "Only the Ball was White" by Sol White. That should give you a good flavor of how the economic structure (or lack thereof) worked.

jmm8356 · 01-13-2005, 10:01 AM

As you can see from this timeline, there were multiple leagues with setups ever-changing as teams formed and folded.

NCBeachBum · 01-13-2005, 01:32 PM

Can anyone with some experience using that database give us any helpful information on it? It's strengths, weaknesses, what we might need to edit? Also, is there any way at all to combine it with Lahman's without using Access?

ctorg · 01-13-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCBeachBum

Can anyone with some experience using that database give us any helpful information on it? It's strengths, weaknesses, what we might need to edit? Also, is there any way at all to combine it with Lahman's without using Access?

The common complaint I've heard about it is that many of them are rated as being better than they actually would have been against major leaguers. Basically, if you use them, a lot of them end up being superstars, which really wouldn't be the case. Yes, a lot of great players were in the Negro Leagues, but not every one of the guys in the database would have been a great major leaguer, IMO.

It's fairly easy to combine. You can basically open each of the files with a text editor, if I recall, and append them to the end of your regular Lahman DB, which you can also open with a text editor. HOWEVER, I think they may have been created with an old version of the database in mind, so some of the columns may be off. You can use Excel to move the columns around if you want, and save it as a csv file. Then append to Lahman.

RJolley · 01-13-2005, 02:29 PM

I've edited the database to the current Lahman format, and have used them in my league. What I did was add 50-100 ABs to the hitters and, for the most part, I was happy with the results. When I ran the league with the stats as-is, the Negro League hitters dominated the records. With the updated ABs, the stats are more in-line with the rest of the major leagues. The guys who do well are ones I think would've done well in the majors at that time. I still have some editing to do to the pitchers. I think I added innings and adjusted the ERAs, but it weakened them a bit too much. I'll have to revisit that if I ever redo the league.

If you'd like to see the stats from the league, check out the link below.

If people want the file, let me know and I'll make it available, if there are no issues.

Also, I am looking for more players to add to these, so if you know of more stats, please let me know.

disposableheros · 01-13-2005, 03:02 PM

thanks gents

JoeRockEHF · 01-13-2005, 03:05 PM

I can put it up at the Download Center. Email me at JoeRockEHF@comcast.net.

seth70liz76 · 01-13-2005, 03:35 PM

I took a peek at your league (I'm considering something similar when I finally get around to purchasing 7 sometime in 2006) and took a look at Sam Jethroe. Now, granted, the benefits of regular minor league work and MLB facilities (even in the 40's and 50's would have been light-years ahead of the negro leagues) he may have been a star--but the actual MLB line for Jethroe suggest-no confirms-he was a borderline player. I just wondering if there should be a greater penalty applied to the negro leaguers in a database like this. As much as we'd like to think the NNL, NAL, ECL, etc were on par with MLB, they clearly weren't. Yes, the stars of the league were of MLB talent, but from what I've read the mass of players were AAA and below in terms of talent (consider many talented African-American players wouldn't have pursued a baseball career because of the pay/lifestyle/etc). How to do this, I don't know, but it seems that the negro leagues were at similar developmental stage as MLB at the beginning of the last century. The stars would be stars in any era, but the 2nd level MLBers would barely last in the minors today.

gbmoore121 · 01-13-2005, 05:11 PM

RJolley,

What happened with Bob Will? Looks like he imported a bit early in your sim

RJolley · 01-13-2005, 05:47 PM

gbmoore121: Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with him. I need to track him down and fix him. That's one of the reasons I've thought about redoing it.

seth70liz76: Very true, he may not have been. But I did this more for what could have happened. Who knows, Jethroe, with seasoning in the minors could have had the work ethic to turn himself into a great hitter. So, I have no problems accepting him doing well just like I have no problem accepting that Babe Ruth only hit 400 or so HRs.

Having said that, I do plan to revisit the stats. I have a book with some NL stats and I plan on merging together 2-4 years worth of stats from the book and come up with a better average season. Or, I may add another 50-100 ABs to the players...but then that weakens the players who were great during that time.

Maybe when I get that time machine working, I'll go back and gather some accurate stats. Or may talk someone into trying it in the 1920's...

JoeRockEHF: Sure thing. I'll send over just the Negro League players so they can be added to any Lahman database that's in the same format. Mine are currently in Ankit's db.

seth70liz76 · 01-13-2005, 05:58 PM

I'm not criticizing the results (once any player is imported into OOTP they all become fictional), but just wondering if there could be a way to fit the two stats histories (Negro and MLB) better. I suppose the same question could be raised if one was merging a Japanese League DB into a MLB database. We know one is "superior" to the other, but are uncertain of the degree.

RJolley · 01-13-2005, 06:09 PM

Didn't take it as such and didn't mean to come off that way. Just my view that whatever happens in the What If league is valid...well, except for Bob Will playing from 1913 until 1967. Something about someone playing from 19 years before they were conceived stright through to 35 years after they were conceived is a bit much.

Rainers · 01-14-2005, 01:40 AM

Has anyone tried to combine both the negro database and Lahman Database into one database? And if so, what results did you get?

Rainers

NCBeachBum · 01-14-2005, 03:21 AM

Thanks for the info, y'all. This is a great example of the kind of helpful things that come out of this community.

RJolley · 01-14-2005, 08:35 AM

Rainers: I have. Check the link in my sig for the Catobase results. I ran the league from 1901 until 2011 with normal MLB expansion, though the cities and team names are not the same as the MLB.

01-12-2005, 12:21 PM	#1
ctripp Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 22	Negro League Database Does anybody know of a historical database available for download that includes Negro Leaguers? Thanks, Charles

01-12-2005, 12:57 PM	#4
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	You can get it here: http://www.tresclub.com/downloads/downloads.htm __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

01-12-2005, 03:19 PM	#5
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	i realize this is lazy, but im gonna do it anyway... what kinda setup did they have (teams/divisions/leagues) and did they use any kinda modern transactions (FA/Rule 5/similar ideas)? id like to try my first Negro League solo, but could use some guidance. anything i should be concerned about using cooley's rosters? any tips would be appreciated __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517 Last edited by disposableheros; 01-12-2005 at 03:21 PM.

01-12-2005, 03:35 PM	#6
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	Check out the classic "Only the Ball was White" by Sol White. That should give you a good flavor of how the economic structure (or lack thereof) worked. __________________ It was a mistake to come back.

01-13-2005, 10:01 AM	#7
jmm8356 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Lafayette IN (by way of Tonawanda NY) Posts: 1,673	As you can see from this timeline, there were multiple leagues with setups ever-changing as teams formed and folded. __________________ Jeremy from Tonawanda --- Go Cubbies! --- Unofficial Theta Tester(tm) "Oh, we got both kinds. We got country and western!" From OOTP 6: Designated for Assignment FAQ (Includes both problems and solutions! Ooooo! )

01-12-2005, 12:25 PM	#2
BigCity All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: South Shore, Great Lakes Posts: 1,386	I believe Cooleyvol has the closest thing to a database.

01-13-2005, 01:32 PM	#8
NCBeachBum All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Topsail Island, NC, USA Posts: 1,049	Can anyone with some experience using that database give us any helpful information on it? It's strengths, weaknesses, what we might need to edit? Also, is there any way at all to combine it with Lahman's without using Access?

01-13-2005, 02:29 PM	#10
RJolley Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 334	I've edited the database to the current Lahman format, and have used them in my league. What I did was add 50-100 ABs to the hitters and, for the most part, I was happy with the results. When I ran the league with the stats as-is, the Negro League hitters dominated the records. With the updated ABs, the stats are more in-line with the rest of the major leagues. The guys who do well are ones I think would've done well in the majors at that time. I still have some editing to do to the pitchers. I think I added innings and adjusted the ERAs, but it weakened them a bit too much. I'll have to revisit that if I ever redo the league. If you'd like to see the stats from the league, check out the link below. If people want the file, let me know and I'll make it available, if there are no issues. Also, I am looking for more players to add to these, so if you know of more stats, please let me know.

01-13-2005, 03:02 PM	#11
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	thanks gents

01-13-2005, 03:05 PM	#12
JoeRockEHF All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Niles, MI Posts: 933	I can put it up at the Download Center. Email me at JoeRockEHF@comcast.net. __________________ PSN: JoeRockEHF

01-13-2005, 03:35 PM	#13
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	I took a peek at your league (I'm considering something similar when I finally get around to purchasing 7 sometime in 2006) and took a look at Sam Jethroe. Now, granted, the benefits of regular minor league work and MLB facilities (even in the 40's and 50's would have been light-years ahead of the negro leagues) he may have been a star--but the actual MLB line for Jethroe suggest-no confirms-he was a borderline player. I just wondering if there should be a greater penalty applied to the negro leaguers in a database like this. As much as we'd like to think the NNL, NAL, ECL, etc were on par with MLB, they clearly weren't. Yes, the stars of the league were of MLB talent, but from what I've read the mass of players were AAA and below in terms of talent (consider many talented African-American players wouldn't have pursued a baseball career because of the pay/lifestyle/etc). How to do this, I don't know, but it seems that the negro leagues were at similar developmental stage as MLB at the beginning of the last century. The stars would be stars in any era, but the 2nd level MLBers would barely last in the minors today. __________________ It was a mistake to come back.

01-13-2005, 05:11 PM	#14
gbmoore121 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 602	RJolley, What happened with Bob Will? Looks like he imported a bit early in your sim

01-13-2005, 05:47 PM	#15
RJolley Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 334	gbmoore121: Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with him. I need to track him down and fix him. That's one of the reasons I've thought about redoing it. seth70liz76: Very true, he may not have been. But I did this more for what could have happened. Who knows, Jethroe, with seasoning in the minors could have had the work ethic to turn himself into a great hitter. So, I have no problems accepting him doing well just like I have no problem accepting that Babe Ruth only hit 400 or so HRs. Having said that, I do plan to revisit the stats. I have a book with some NL stats and I plan on merging together 2-4 years worth of stats from the book and come up with a better average season. Or, I may add another 50-100 ABs to the players...but then that weakens the players who were great during that time. Maybe when I get that time machine working, I'll go back and gather some accurate stats. Or may talk someone into trying it in the 1920's... JoeRockEHF: Sure thing. I'll send over just the Negro League players so they can be added to any Lahman database that's in the same format. Mine are currently in Ankit's db.

01-13-2005, 05:58 PM	#16
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	I'm not criticizing the results (once any player is imported into OOTP they all become fictional), but just wondering if there could be a way to fit the two stats histories (Negro and MLB) better. I suppose the same question could be raised if one was merging a Japanese League DB into a MLB database. We know one is "superior" to the other, but are uncertain of the degree. __________________ It was a mistake to come back.

01-13-2005, 06:09 PM	#17
RJolley Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 334	Didn't take it as such and didn't mean to come off that way. Just my view that whatever happens in the What If league is valid...well, except for Bob Will playing from 1913 until 1967. Something about someone playing from 19 years before they were conceived stright through to 35 years after they were conceived is a bit much.

01-14-2005, 01:40 AM	#18
Rainers Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 87	Has anyone? Has anyone tried to combine both the negro database and Lahman Database into one database? And if so, what results did you get? Rainers

01-14-2005, 03:21 AM	#19
NCBeachBum All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Topsail Island, NC, USA Posts: 1,049	Thanks for the info, y'all. This is a great example of the kind of helpful things that come out of this community.

01-14-2005, 08:35 AM	#20
RJolley Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 334	Rainers: I have. Check the link in my sig for the Catobase results. I ran the league from 1901 until 2011 with normal MLB expansion, though the cities and team names are not the same as the MLB.