knuckleball "special" pitch

[shakturi101]

I have a pitcher with a 80 grade knuckleball, but he has two other pitches, a slider at 45/80, and a change at 35/80. Normally I would expect this pitcher would be marked as bullpen/borderline starter, because he doesn't have three decent enough pitcher to be marked as starter.

However, I see that in this case, the pitcher is marked as starter. Does this mean that the knuckleball has some sort of special properties that allow the pitcher to be considered a starter without three good enough pitches?

[uknownick]

Yes knuckleball is special

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by shakturi101

However, I see that in this case, the pitcher is marked as starter. Does this mean that the knuckleball has some sort of special properties that allow the pitcher to be considered a starter without three good enough pitches?

Just like real life, having only a knuckleball allows you to be a starter. I think the devs made this happen in version 24.

The reason starting pitchers need multiple pitches is so that they can keep hitters off-balance over 9 innings with pitches that go in different directions. But because the movement of a knuckleball is unpredictable, it accomplishes all of that with just the single pitch. The downside is you get more passed balls and wild pitches.

Knuckleballers also need less recovery time between starts than other pitchers, but that is not currently modeled in the game.

[NoOne]

knuckleball has always added certain characteristics.. depends on quality of the kb too, of course.

Greater number of innings pitched, relative to talent.
- Your SP will be an innings eater even if just above average results.

Consistently lower BABIP - this likely is the cause of the above.

Saw a very average KB'er end up with 20+ year career and a ton of innings most years. think he even got close to 300wins with a low 4-something ERA. He did have some really good years - it wasn't all mediocre. He was also the league "Loss" leader by far. Most GS by far etc.. workhorse.

He wasn't a true ace the bulk of his career but a 3rd-5th SP that eats up 250+ innings is value added (when even good SP struggle to break 200ip). A couple Kb'ers (very rare to find 2 at a time) can significantly reduce bullpen usage.

i don't know about the 1-pitch claim. I've only had kb starters with 3 or more pitches. not even sure if i've seen a 2-pitch kb pitcher before. I'd be wary of the same effect all 2-pitch sp have... they 'can' have good games or even stretches, but they are extra volatile compared to a 3-pitch pitcher of similar quality. Over the long term they have a lot of bad outings out of proportion to normal.

they are worth searching for and developing. I don't trust any talented kb pitcher with the AI. I will get them into my minor leagues ASAP if i don't draft them. i spend better, i promote better...

The ones with huge holes in talent can be ignored. i.e. super low accuracy or movement. Velo too low, even for a KB sp.

[uruguru]

Great video on the pitch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REvp7HEXXMc

Some factoids:

1) Historically, knuckleballers have almost exclusively relied on the pitch (it mentions a game where Wakefield threw 170 knuckleballs)

2) Knuckleballers rarely get injuries. Arm injuries are basically non-existent. In fact, a lot of traditional pitchers whose careers seemed ended by injury revived their careers because they learned to throw a knuckleball (e.g. Jim Bouton)

3) Knuckleballers age much more slowly, ability-wise, because there's so little wear & tear on the body

4) It's a pitch that even non-pitchers can learn (although it's very difficult to learn). Wakefield is one of the examples of a position player reviving his career by learning the pitch

5) Knuckleballers need less rest between starts. This can lead to crazy results if a team's #1 starter is a knuckleballer because the rest of the rotation concedes to his turn. It mentions Wilbur Wood's 49 starts & 376 innings when he was a #1 starter.

6) It's very easy for a knuckeballer to become a terrible pitcher. Even a slight unwanted spin turns the KB from a great pitch to the easiest pitch to hit. When a knuckleball is not "knuckling", the pitcher can get shelled

7) It's hard to catch. The video mentions that passed balls and wild pitches are 4x more likely for knuckleballs. A funny anecdote about Wakefield's personal catcher is mentioned to highlight that teams will often have personal catchers (presumably with a high blocking ability) to serve as personal catchers for knuckleball pitchers.

All of these elements could theoretically be incorporated into OOTP since the underlying mechanics already exist. #1 is already covered. #2 could be covered by setting the potential for arm injury to the lowest possible setting. #3 would be more challenging, probably #4 could be covered as a special pitch to learn in the development lab. #5 - not sure how they could cover that. #6 - maybe a hidden but low % chance that the knuckleball is at half-strength for any random start? also challenging #7 - this might already be in the game, dunno. But it would probably need the ability to assign personal catchers to pitchers, which currently doesn't exist in the game.

[dawg1isclear]

Cool video...

[RubyMBermudez]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Great video on the pitch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REvp7HEXXMc

Some factoids:

1) Historically, knuckleballers have almost exclusively relied on the pitch (it mentions a game where Wakefield threw 170 knuckleballs)
Yes, the knuckleball can indeed have unique properties that allow a pitcher to be considered a starter, even if they lack a third strong pitch. Its unpredictable nature can make it challenging for batters, which can compensate for the weaker slider and change. If the knuckleball is consistently effective, it can dominate games and keep hitters off balance, making the pitcher valuable as a starter despite having only two solid pitches. This can lead to success in longer outings, as the knuckleball can often reduce wear and tear on the arm compared to other pitches. Need help from a professional essay writer? I have found a platform that offers various academic writing services for students, such as custom essays, case studies, and dissertations. With a commitment to originality and on-time delivery, academized.com/write-my-paper also provides tools like plagiarism checks and citation generators to ensure high-quality work. The site aims to support students in managing their academic workload effectively.
2) Knuckleballers rarely get injuries. Arm injuries are basically non-existent. In fact, a lot of traditional pitchers whose careers seemed ended by injury revived their careers because they learned to throw a knuckleball (e.g. Jim Bouton)

3) Knuckleballers age much more slowly, ability-wise, because there's so little wear & tear on the body

4) It's a pitch that even non-pitchers can learn (although it's very difficult to learn). Wakefield is one of the examples of a position player reviving his career by learning the pitch

5) Knuckleballers need less rest between starts. This can lead to crazy results if a team's #1 starter is a knuckleballer because the rest of the rotation concedes to his turn. It mentions Wilbur Wood's 49 starts & 376 innings when he was a #1 starter.

6) It's very easy for a knuckeballer to become a terrible pitcher. Even a slight unwanted spin turns the KB from a great pitch to the easiest pitch to hit. When a knuckleball is not "knuckling", the pitcher can get shelled

7) It's hard to catch. The video mentions that passed balls and wild pitches are 4x more likely for knuckleballs. A funny anecdote about Wakefield's personal catcher is mentioned to highlight that teams will often have personal catchers (presumably with a high blocking ability) to serve as personal catchers for knuckleball pitchers.

All of these elements could theoretically be incorporated into OOTP since the underlying mechanics already exist. #1 is already covered. #2 could be covered by setting the potential for arm injury to the lowest possible setting. #3 would be more challenging, probably #4 could be covered as a special pitch to learn in the development lab. #5 - not sure how they could cover that. #6 - maybe a hidden but low % chance that the knuckleball is at half-strength for any random start? also challenging #7 - this might already be in the game, dunno. But it would probably need the ability to assign personal catchers to pitchers, which currently doesn't exist in the game.

Yes, I like it.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, this is why we have to base asks like this on the actual data and not our feelings as to what should happen. Knuckleballers absolutely do get injured, for one. Steve Sparks threw the knuckler and missed a year and a half from 1996-97 (he also missed time in 1995 trying to rip a phone book in half but IIRC these were completely different injuries). Tim Wakefield missed time in 2006 and 2009 and even Phil Niekro didn't literally pitch every 4th game every season. I'm not sure what his usage patterns were towards the end of his career (he was really bad though) so maybe he was a Sunday starter but he was also only starting like 25 games a year, so something was limiting him.

It's also not just "hard" for guys to learn the dancer, it's basically something you can't count on. Former Rangers pitching coach Tom House wrote a book in the early 90s about some of the things he tried while he was in charge of the pitchers there and one thing he did do, given the success of Charlie Hough in the majors, was try to impart the knuckleball to a couple of minor league guys. Even from the beginning he was clear that the guys who he took time to teach were basically at the end of their minor league careers, like if he hadn't had them step aside and learn the pitch the Rangers would have cut them. I think of the two or three guys he put into that program, one guy lasted a couple extra years in the minor leagues.

I think teaching the knuckler is a fun idea but I think the success rate in the development lab should be very, very close to 0.

I think the real "issue" with the knuckleball is that it doesn't get outs the way other pitches do, i.e. by making hitters miss them. A knuckleball pitcher will generate a lower BABIP than another pitcher on average because making weak contact is somehow a thing for it. Well, that's one; the other is that it looks like the guy's throwing slow-pitch softball out there and if he gets hit around the manager looks like a complete fool for using him at all. So you wind up in a paradoxical situation where in order for a guy to get used at all, he's got to have an established record as a good pitcher, and almost by definition a guy with an established record as a good pitcher won't be switching to the knuckler (Jim Bouton was a rare exception although even he had a few years of ineffective play before the Pilots let him through the knuckler exclusively).

I'm not super sure the knuckler is necessarily any less reliable than any other pitch although it might seem that way because a. when it's not working it looks really stupid and b. since it's the only pitch a guy throws he can't just drop it from the arsenal. I'd actually like to see some kind of a "command check" on all pitches, not just knucklers, before a game and if the check fails then for that game the pitcher's stuff, etc. is compiled without that pitch (which, a 3-pitch guy with a not-working 3rd pitch turns into a guy who can maaaaybe give you 5 innings if you're willing to pitch him through jams in the 4th and 5th, and I think that's how it should be).

[Highlander]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, this is why we have to base asks like this on the actual data and not our feelings as to what should happen. Knuckleballers absolutely do get injured, for one. Steve Sparks threw the knuckler and missed a year and a half from 1996-97 (he also missed time in 1995 trying to rip a phone book in half but IIRC these were completely different injuries). Tim Wakefield missed time in 2006 and 2009 and even Phil Niekro didn't literally pitch every 4th game every season. I'm not sure what his usage patterns were towards the end of his career (he was really bad though) so maybe he was a Sunday starter but he was also only starting like 25 games a year, so something was limiting him.

It's also not just "hard" for guys to learn the dancer, it's basically something you can't count on. Former Rangers pitching coach Tom House wrote a book in the early 90s about some of the things he tried while he was in charge of the pitchers there and one thing he did do, given the success of Charlie Hough in the majors, was try to impart the knuckleball to a couple of minor league guys. Even from the beginning he was clear that the guys who he took time to teach were basically at the end of their minor league careers, like if he hadn't had them step aside and learn the pitch the Rangers would have cut them. I think of the two or three guys he put into that program, one guy lasted a couple extra years in the minor leagues.

I think teaching the knuckler is a fun idea but I think the success rate in the development lab should be very, very close to 0.

I think the real "issue" with the knuckleball is that it doesn't get outs the way other pitches do, i.e. by making hitters miss them. A knuckleball pitcher will generate a lower BABIP than another pitcher on average because making weak contact is somehow a thing for it. Well, that's one; the other is that it looks like the guy's throwing slow-pitch softball out there and if he gets hit around the manager looks like a complete fool for using him at all. So you wind up in a paradoxical situation where in order for a guy to get used at all, he's got to have an established record as a good pitcher, and almost by definition a guy with an established record as a good pitcher won't be switching to the knuckler (Jim Bouton was a rare exception although even he had a few years of ineffective play before the Pilots let him through the knuckler exclusively).

I'm not super sure the knuckler is necessarily any less reliable than any other pitch although it might seem that way because a. when it's not working it looks really stupid and b. since it's the only pitch a guy throws he can't just drop it from the arsenal. I'd actually like to see some kind of a "command check" on all pitches, not just knucklers, before a game and if the check fails then for that game the pitcher's stuff, etc. is compiled without that pitch (which, a 3-pitch guy with a not-working 3rd pitch turns into a guy who can maaaaybe give you 5 innings if you're willing to pitch him through jams in the 4th and 5th, and I think that's how it should be).

Not sure about your Niekro information saying that he was starting 25 games per year towards the end of his career and was really bad. The only year from 1968-1986 where he didn't start at least 30 games and throw at least 200 innings was in 1981...the strike year. In 1986, he still went 11-11 in 210 IP and a 4.32 ERA....wouldn't call that "really bad". 1987 was when his career finally fell apart....he still started 26 games, but had a 6.30 ERA. He was, however, 48 years old! That was his last year....so in a 24 year career, he had his only bad season in his last season at age 48. I'd say the knuckleball served him pretty well.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, this is why we have to base asks like this on the actual data and not our feelings as to what should happen. Knuckleballers absolutely do get injured, for one. Steve Sparks threw the knuckler and missed a year and a half from 1996-97 (he also missed time in 1995 trying to rip a phone book in half but IIRC these were completely different injuries). Tim Wakefield missed time in 2006 and 2009 and even Phil Niekro didn't literally pitch every 4th game every season. I'm not sure what his usage patterns were towards the end of his career (he was really bad though) so maybe he was a Sunday starter but he was also only starting like 25 games a year, so something was limiting him.

It's also not just "hard" for guys to learn the dancer, it's basically something you can't count on. Former Rangers pitching coach Tom House wrote a book in the early 90s about some of the things he tried while he was in charge of the pitchers there and one thing he did do, given the success of Charlie Hough in the majors, was try to impart the knuckleball to a couple of minor league guys. Even from the beginning he was clear that the guys who he took time to teach were basically at the end of their minor league careers, like if he hadn't had them step aside and learn the pitch the Rangers would have cut them. I think of the two or three guys he put into that program, one guy lasted a couple extra years in the minor leagues.

I think teaching the knuckler is a fun idea but I think the success rate in the development lab should be very, very close to 0.

I think the real "issue" with the knuckleball is that it doesn't get outs the way other pitches do, i.e. by making hitters miss them. A knuckleball pitcher will generate a lower BABIP than another pitcher on average because making weak contact is somehow a thing for it. Well, that's one; the other is that it looks like the guy's throwing slow-pitch softball out there and if he gets hit around the manager looks like a complete fool for using him at all. So you wind up in a paradoxical situation where in order for a guy to get used at all, he's got to have an established record as a good pitcher, and almost by definition a guy with an established record as a good pitcher won't be switching to the knuckler (Jim Bouton was a rare exception although even he had a few years of ineffective play before the Pilots let him through the knuckler exclusively).

I'm not super sure the knuckler is necessarily any less reliable than any other pitch although it might seem that way because a. when it's not working it looks really stupid and b. since it's the only pitch a guy throws he can't just drop it from the arsenal. I'd actually like to see some kind of a "command check" on all pitches, not just knucklers, before a game and if the check fails then for that game the pitcher's stuff, etc. is compiled without that pitch (which, a 3-pitch guy with a not-working 3rd pitch turns into a guy who can maaaaybe give you 5 innings if you're willing to pitch him through jams in the 4th and 5th, and I think that's how it should be).

The knuckler is also seen as a fringe pitch. It's seen as a novelty and discounted as such. This leaves a limited number able to teach it, an even more limited number willing to consider paying staff to teach it and an even more limited number of pitchers who would even consider learning it, let alone putting in the effort needed.

Teaching it should be limited to former knuckleballers, success rate can be a bit lower to due to all the factors involved with learning the pitch but the real limiting factor should be the number of coaches. It would be nice to be able to create an increase down the line by teaching more players, who then become coaches and pass it on.

[jksander]

How does endurance play into how a knuckler does as a starter? I'm looking at this guy in my online league's draft, but he has 35 endurance.

https://atl-01.statsplus.net/modernb...er_141631.html

Would I need to work to improve his endurance, or would that level of stamina be enough for him truly to be a starter?

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, this is why we have to base asks like this on the actual data and not our feelings as to what should happen. Knuckleballers absolutely do get injured, for one. Steve Sparks threw the knuckler and missed a year and a half from 1996-97 (he also missed time in 1995 trying to rip a phone book in half but IIRC these were completely different injuries).

This definitely intrigued me so I looked it up.


Steve Sparks, on the injury that caused him to miss a season and get Tommy John surgery:

"It was a fluke injury. It was the last spring game in 1997 and I was covering first on a play and the throw was errant. So I went to get it and throw it back home, but the catcher put up the stop sign and I tried to pull my arm back and stop the throw, and the ligament tore off the bone,"

No one is saying knuckleballers are immune to baseball injuries, but injuries caused by throwing a knuckleball seem extremely rare. I'm honestly not even sure if they exist at all.

After all, there were guys like Jim Bouton (in the pre-Tommy John surgery era) who would injure their arm and then resurrect their career by learning to throw the knuckleball because they could throw it despite their arm injury.

[Battman]

What is the effect of a Knuckleballer with regards to the lefty/righty factor. Getting ready to start the World Series and will face my first KB. I have not fared well against Lefties this year and he is a lefty.