The Twins are playing in the Minor Leagues! - Page 3

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 12:45 PM

Well I do see your point but the more I think about it this topic is only silly because of calling the AL Central a triple A league. That was tongue in cheek but I still stand by the weaker division argument allowing the Twins to get into the playoffs. However I do see your point. So lets leave it at that.

drprestwood · 09-03-2002, 03:58 PM

I didn't say that you admitted that your opinion was wrong.

Instead, you granted my arguments and the arguments of others as to why you were wrong by simply ignoring them.

Rhetorical theoretician Stephen Toulmin provides what is possibly the most commonly accepted structure for rhetorical argument. According to his model, an argument consists of six parts, but I will simplify it to the three indispensible ones for this discussion:

1) Claim
This is the conclusion that one is attempting to justify.
Your claim is that the Twins are not a good baseball team and only are passable because they play in the AL Central.
2) Evidence/Data
These are the facts on which the argument is based.
Your grounds are that the AL West is better than the AL Central.
3)Warrant
The warrant is where you determine whether or not the claim is legitimate based on the data.
This is where your argument is lacking. You have provided no analysis as to why the two are connected, nor data about their performance against the West.
I however provided a brief statistical analysis of what the Twins' record would be if they were in the West, based on winning percentages against various divisions.

There are two ways that you can choose to answer the argument--you can either respond on point, or choose a different rhetorical model. I predict failure either way.

Additionally, I just want to point out that your most recent argument was that the Twins are only a good ball club because they play in a weak division, not that the Twins will only get into the playoffs because they're in the Central or even that they only have a SHOT because of that fact.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 04:12 PM

Well thank you for that little diatribe on what makes up an argument. When did I not respond? How was it not timely? Seems to me like you have made a decision based upon your own opinion, which is fine. However please do not presume to tell me that I was behaving one way or another. You do not even know me so please do not act like you have a clue as to what I was trying to say in the thesis of my statement.

Wheww, now with that said, lets remember we are just talking about a game and games are supposed to be FUN! So lets have some fun and leave this discussion behind us with just one comment left: YOU KNOW I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS TO PROVE ME WRONG

Can you disprove what I have said? "The Twins won loss record would place them in last place were they in the American League West (check out the standings)! However since they are in the Americal League Central (a weaker division by record) they are in first!" So where is the error in my argument? Proof man I want concrete proof. Not vague statistics that show how the Twins have beaten teams from the West. That is nothing other than a small sampling of games and cannot disprove what I have stated.

Are we having fun yet? You predict failure??? How can one fail when there is no test? What am I failing at? I have proven my point, just check out any sports section in todays papers! Where is your proof against that? Hah! You have none....

twins15 · 09-03-2002, 04:18 PM

The Twins ahev ahd the division wrapped up for a long time. Gardenhire has been giving the players extra time to rest so that thye will be ready for the playoffs. Mientkiewicz and Koskie have not been playing as much as of late. So that could be the reason why they are struggling a bit in the last two weeks.

drprestwood · 09-03-2002, 04:32 PM

Jesus Christ!

Dude, I am having fun. I enjoy argumentation for what it is, and applying a rhetorical model is part of that. If that's not your preference, that's cool...just keep taking out the crayons posting on this thread.

Um..."YOU KNOW I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS TO PROVE ME WRONG?" You're right. That's how it works. It's like when Martin Luther King, Jr. was all like, "Man, Black people really are inferior...the Klan is right. I guess I'll just have to go to extreme lengths to prove them wrong." Or, in actuality, maybe the problem is that I'm making arguments and you're making unfounded claims, so I feel the need to reiterate my arguments. Although, I don't know why I'm doing so, since everybody else on this thread seems to think you don't know what's going on. I guess I keep posting so that those other people don't have to do it themselves.

Finally--to the argument. You never said, "The Twins won loss record would place them in last place were they in the American League West." Also, that is not true, as the Texas Rangers would be in last. And now, I quote, with spelling errors corrected: "Check out the standings!" and "Just check out any sports section in today's papers!"

The proof was in the statistical analysis. That's as close as we can get to truth in this kind of discussion, and I haven't seen you make an attempt to get closer. Also, as of today the Mariners' record would be worse if they played the Twins more times, as they've split on the season. The Twins would most likely be in third.

My prediction was related to the failure of your attempts to answer my argument. I see that I look like Carnac once again.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 05:06 PM

Please do not use Christ's name in vain like that, thanks. Secondly your statistical analysis is flawed. You said IF the Mariners played the Twins more times.....that is a supposition and not proof, just pure speculation. My proof is concrete...WON-LOST RECORDS as of today! That is really all we have to go by in this discussion. Sure we can hypothesize as you have done but in the end statistics are meaningless and the ultimate definition is how many W's a team has!

Have you ever heard the phrase: "Statistics are for losers"?

twins15 · 09-03-2002, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

Have you ever heard the phrase: "Statistics are for losers"?

I have not heard that.

CubsFan · 09-03-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Mariner and Giants Fan wrote:

in the end statistics are meaningless and the ultimate definition is how many W's a team has!

Aren't W's a statistic?

And isn't there a huge flaw in arguing (1) a team's place in the standings would be different if that team were placed in a different division, while (2) acknowledging that if a team were placed in a different division, its schedule would be different, all the while (3) denouncing an opposing argument that attempts to estimate what that team's record would be if it played the schedule it would play when placed in the different division?

GForce22 · 09-03-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
Please do not use Christ's name in vain like that, thanks.
Have you ever heard the phrase: "Statistics are for losers"?

A) Spare me the "name in vain" crap...man created god, not the other way around.

B) Yes, I've heard that phrase...it's usually said by people who make a point that is disproven/not supported by statistics.

GH

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 06:01 PM

Correction, Man created Religion, God created man. I am saddened that so many cannot tell the difference. The peace that knowing the love God has for his creations is truly awesome

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 06:02 PM

Wins and losses are more than stats, they are the finite product of all stats!!

CubsFan · 09-03-2002, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Wins and losses are more than stats, they are the finite product of all stats!!

This is a statment of ignorance and impossibility.

GForce22 · 09-03-2002, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
Correction, Man created Religion, God created man. I am saddened that so many cannot tell the difference. The peace that knowing the love God has for his creations is truly awesome

correction...God is a farce created by man. I am saddened so many base their life on such nonsensical fiction.

GH

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 06:23 PM

Impossibility? What are you smoking. Show me another result from a baseball game full of stats other than wins and losses!!

Oh sorry I see that you are a Cubs fan and wins do not compute

(but losses sure do)!

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-03-2002, 06:25 PM

Let's not get into a discussion on your lack of faith, though I am truly sad for you that you have nothing to believe in other than yourself and material things. Perhaps as you mature and gain wisdom you will change your views on this. One can only pray and hope.

Dwolfson20 · 09-03-2002, 06:31 PM

You're asking him to mature and gain wisdom? Try looking in the mirror first.

GForce22 · 09-03-2002, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
Let's not get into a discussion on your lack of faith, though I am truly sad for you that you have nothing to believe in other than yourself and material things. Perhaps as you mature and gain wisdom you will change your views on this. One can only pray and hope.

I have lots of faith, in my family, my friends, myself. It's funny that a few posts ago you whined about someone else presuming to know you and how you think, yet now you presume to do the same. You prove yourself both hypocritical and ignorant by the second. Good work!

Maybe as you mature and learn to filter out the nonsense that has been forced on you and learn to develop an independent thought, you will learn that the notion of a "god" is comical and nonsensical. People believe in god because they need to believe someone else will take care of them when they screw up, because they lack faith in themselves. THAT is what is sad.

Don't be ignorant enough to think you have so much wisdom...with every word you speak you prove that not to be the case.

GH

CMH · 09-03-2002, 06:44 PM

how about we dont get into religion here.

we dont need a religious war here in the board. the main reason the world is the way it is, is b/c of religious beliefs. if religious beliefs were to be a product of the boards then we would have nothing but senseless arguments about one's personal feelings, which by fact should not be argued by another but the one holding the beliefs.

anywayz, i understand what MaG is sayin.

I had a similar argument about Andruw Jones awhile back on stats that have occured and predicted stats based on formulas and such.

The truth is that the Twins are dominating the AL Central. Thats fact. Stating that they would perform similar or different in another division is just a prediction.

Giving me a "stat" that proves they would perform a certain way in another division is just a prediction formed by formulas. The "stat" is not actual truth, its only a prediction.

Sayin that if the Mariners had played the Twins 5,6,8 wateva games more would have this or that affect on the Twins pennant race is a prediction. Has it happend? no. so sayin that the Twins would lose more games in the West is not exactly true. Your formula that predicted this stat is just that, a prediction.

the hardcore truth is that the Twins are running away with the AL Central. fact, truth. end of argument.

KWhit · 09-03-2002, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by YankeePride

Ever heard of the Braves? there hasnt been any competition in that division for the last decade, with the exception of last year.

Huh??

Last year the Braves won the division by 2 games.

In 2000, they won the division over the wild-card winning Mets by one game (the Mets won 94 games and were the NLCS champs, BTW)

In 99 they also beat out the wild card winning Mets (who won 97 games)

In 97, the Marlins finished second, and oh yeah, they ended up winning the WORLD SERIES.

In 94, the Expos were super-hot and ahead of the Braves by 6 games when the strike happened.

In 93, the SF Giants won 103 games! YES, 103 games and missed the playoffs. But no, that's not competitive.

In 91, the Braves won the division over LA by 1 game. LA won 93 on the year.

For you to say that the division hasn't had any competition for the last decade is worse than ridiculous! If you're going to bash the Braves, at least get your facts straight.

CMH · 09-03-2002, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit

Huh??

Last year the Braves won the division by 2 games.

In 2000, they won the division over the wild-card winning Mets by one game (the Mets won 94 games and were the NLCS champs, BTW)

In 99 they also beat out the wild card winning Mets (who won 97 games)

In 97, the Marlins finished second, and oh yeah, they ended up winning the WORLD SERIES.

In 94, the Expos were super-hot and ahead of the Braves by 6 games when the strike happened.

In 93, the SF Giants won 103 games! YES, 103 games and missed the playoffs. But no, that's not competitive.

In 91, the Braves won the division over LA by 1 game. LA won 93 on the year.

For you to say that the division hasn't had any competition for the last decade is worse than ridiculous! If you're going to bash the Braves, at least get your facts straight.

thanks for bringin up those stats. i was not aware of how close the races were.

obviously i was wrong in sayin that the Braves ran away with the division over the last decade.

however, i just wanna clear up one thing. I never said that to bash the Braves. So where did you get that from?

I was merely defending the Twins by giving examples of other teams who have done extremely well in their divisions for a large amount of time. The defense was to keep the Twins from being criticized for playing in a weak division. Yes, the Braves werent exactly in a weak division and trust me I have always credited the NL East as one of, if not, THE toughest division in baseball.

The Braves and Indians were just examples to support the Twins run. Calm down, please.

EDIT: not necessary. my fault. just ignore if you have no idea what i wrote here.

09-03-2002, 12:45 PM	#41
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Well I do see your point but the more I think about it this topic is only silly because of calling the AL Central a triple A league. That was tongue in cheek but I still stand by the weaker division argument allowing the Twins to get into the playoffs. However I do see your point. So lets leave it at that. __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 03:58 PM	#42
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	I didn't say that you admitted that your opinion was wrong. Instead, you granted my arguments and the arguments of others as to why you were wrong by simply ignoring them. Rhetorical theoretician Stephen Toulmin provides what is possibly the most commonly accepted structure for rhetorical argument. According to his model, an argument consists of six parts, but I will simplify it to the three indispensible ones for this discussion: 1) Claim This is the conclusion that one is attempting to justify. Your claim is that the Twins are not a good baseball team and only are passable because they play in the AL Central. 2) Evidence/Data These are the facts on which the argument is based. Your grounds are that the AL West is better than the AL Central. 3)Warrant The warrant is where you determine whether or not the claim is legitimate based on the data. This is where your argument is lacking. You have provided no analysis as to why the two are connected, nor data about their performance against the West. I however provided a brief statistical analysis of what the Twins' record would be if they were in the West, based on winning percentages against various divisions. There are two ways that you can choose to answer the argument--you can either respond on point, or choose a different rhetorical model. I predict failure either way. Additionally, I just want to point out that your most recent argument was that the Twins are only a good ball club because they play in a weak division, not that the Twins will only get into the playoffs because they're in the Central or even that they only have a SHOT because of that fact. Last edited by drprestwood; 09-03-2002 at 04:02 PM.

09-03-2002, 04:12 PM	#43
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Well thank you for that little diatribe on what makes up an argument. When did I not respond? How was it not timely? Seems to me like you have made a decision based upon your own opinion, which is fine. However please do not presume to tell me that I was behaving one way or another. You do not even know me so please do not act like you have a clue as to what I was trying to say in the thesis of my statement. Wheww, now with that said, lets remember we are just talking about a game and games are supposed to be FUN! So lets have some fun and leave this discussion behind us with just one comment left: YOU KNOW I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS TO PROVE ME WRONG Can you disprove what I have said? "The Twins won loss record would place them in last place were they in the American League West (check out the standings)! However since they are in the Americal League Central (a weaker division by record) they are in first!" So where is the error in my argument? Proof man I want concrete proof. Not vague statistics that show how the Twins have beaten teams from the West. That is nothing other than a small sampling of games and cannot disprove what I have stated. Are we having fun yet? You predict failure??? How can one fail when there is no test? What am I failing at? I have proven my point, just check out any sports section in todays papers! Where is your proof against that? Hah! You have none.... __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 04:18 PM	#44
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	The Twins ahev ahd the division wrapped up for a long time. Gardenhire has been giving the players extra time to rest so that thye will be ready for the playoffs. Mientkiewicz and Koskie have not been playing as much as of late. So that could be the reason why they are struggling a bit in the last two weeks. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-03-2002, 05:06 PM	#46
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Please do not use Christ's name in vain like that, thanks. Secondly your statistical analysis is flawed. You said IF the Mariners played the Twins more times.....that is a supposition and not proof, just pure speculation. My proof is concrete...WON-LOST RECORDS as of today! That is really all we have to go by in this discussion. Sure we can hypothesize as you have done but in the end statistics are meaningless and the ultimate definition is how many W's a team has! Have you ever heard the phrase: "Statistics are for losers"? __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 04:32 PM	#45
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	Jesus Christ! Dude, I am having fun. I enjoy argumentation for what it is, and applying a rhetorical model is part of that. If that's not your preference, that's cool...just keep taking out the crayons posting on this thread. Um..."YOU KNOW I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS TO PROVE ME WRONG?" You're right. That's how it works. It's like when Martin Luther King, Jr. was all like, "Man, Black people really are inferior...the Klan is right. I guess I'll just have to go to extreme lengths to prove them wrong." Or, in actuality, maybe the problem is that I'm making arguments and you're making unfounded claims, so I feel the need to reiterate my arguments. Although, I don't know why I'm doing so, since everybody else on this thread seems to think you don't know what's going on. I guess I keep posting so that those other people don't have to do it themselves. Finally--to the argument. You never said, "The Twins won loss record would place them in last place were they in the American League West." Also, that is not true, as the Texas Rangers would be in last. And now, I quote, with spelling errors corrected: "Check out the standings!" and "Just check out any sports section in today's papers!" The proof was in the statistical analysis. That's as close as we can get to truth in this kind of discussion, and I haven't seen you make an attempt to get closer. Also, as of today the Mariners' record would be worse if they played the Twins more times, as they've split on the season. The Twins would most likely be in third. My prediction was related to the failure of your attempts to answer my argument. I see that I look like Carnac once again.

09-03-2002, 06:01 PM	#50
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Correction, Man created Religion, God created man. I am saddened that so many cannot tell the difference. The peace that knowing the love God has for his creations is truly awesome __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 06:02 PM	#51
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Wins and losses are more than stats, they are the finite product of all stats!! __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 06:23 PM	#54
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Impossibility? What are you smoking. Show me another result from a baseball game full of stats other than wins and losses!! Oh sorry I see that you are a Cubs fan and wins do not compute (but losses sure do)! __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 06:25 PM	#55
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Let's not get into a discussion on your lack of faith, though I am truly sad for you that you have nothing to believe in other than yourself and material things. Perhaps as you mature and gain wisdom you will change your views on this. One can only pray and hope. __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-03-2002, 06:31 PM	#56
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	You're asking him to mature and gain wisdom? Try looking in the mirror first. __________________

09-03-2002, 06:44 PM	#58
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	how about we dont get into religion here. we dont need a religious war here in the board. the main reason the world is the way it is, is b/c of religious beliefs. if religious beliefs were to be a product of the boards then we would have nothing but senseless arguments about one's personal feelings, which by fact should not be argued by another but the one holding the beliefs. anywayz, i understand what MaG is sayin. I had a similar argument about Andruw Jones awhile back on stats that have occured and predicted stats based on formulas and such. The truth is that the Twins are dominating the AL Central. Thats fact. Stating that they would perform similar or different in another division is just a prediction. Giving me a "stat" that proves they would perform a certain way in another division is just a prediction formed by formulas. The "stat" is not actual truth, its only a prediction. Sayin that if the Mariners had played the Twins 5,6,8 wateva games more would have this or that affect on the Twins pennant race is a prediction. Has it happend? no. so sayin that the Twins would lose more games in the West is not exactly true. Your formula that predicted this stat is just that, a prediction. the hardcore truth is that the Twins are running away with the AL Central. fact, truth. end of argument.