SP as RP ratings

[luckymann]

Would love to hear some thoughts on how OOTP handles SP ratings when utilised as relievers.

This is prompted by a guy I traded and, as I do with all traded players, kept an eye on to see how he went post-trade. He was a 63 rated SP but the team I traded him to had him in their bullpen and his rating had dropped to 48.

I understand why relievers' ratings fall if used in the rotation, and even that because of the different mentality required between SP and RP roles an SP may lose some ratings points if used in relief. But 15 points seems a massive price to pay and I can't wrap my head around why it would be so precipitous a fall. I looked for other examples to check it wasn't solely related to that one guy's makeup and found others in the same boat, so it isn't an isolated incident.

Thoughts?

[luckymann]

... as a side note. Am I imagining things or in 21 do pitchers' ratings drop when promoted to the major league level? I swear I never saw that before but it is happening in this version of the game. I have ratings set to the top league.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Would love to hear some thoughts on how OOTP handles SP ratings when utilised as relievers.

This is prompted by a guy I traded and, as I do with all traded players, kept an eye on to see how he went post-trade. He was a 63 rated SP but the team I traded him to had him in their bullpen and his rating had dropped to 48.

I understand why relievers' ratings fall if used in the rotation, and even that because of the different mentality required between SP and RP roles an SP may lose some ratings points if used in relief. But 15 points seems a massive price to pay and I can't wrap my head around why it would be so precipitous a fall. I looked for other examples to check it wasn't solely related to that one guy's makeup and found others in the same boat, so it isn't an isolated incident.

Thoughts?

By and large, relievers use their first 2, maybe 3 pitches to determine Stuff whereas starters use all of them and for the most part the more the merrier. In order to be an effective starter a player needs to throw at least 3 pitches, period (the baseball wisdom is they need to throw a fastball, a breaking pitch, and a change of pace, but I’m not sure the game cares about which pitches as long as you’ve got 3 of them). That’s why you’ll see guys in your bullpen with high Stamina ratings listed as Bullpen only - it doesn’t matter how many pitches a sinker/slider guy can throw, hitters will figure him out by the 2nd time he goes through the order.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

By and large, relievers use their first 2, maybe 3 pitches to determine Stuff whereas starters use all of them and for the most part the more the merrier. In order to be an effective starter a player needs to throw at least 3 pitches, period (the baseball wisdom is they need to throw a fastball, a breaking pitch, and a change of pace, but I’m not sure the game cares about which pitches as long as you’ve got 3 of them). That’s why you’ll see guys in your bullpen with high Stamina ratings listed as Bullpen only - it doesn’t matter how many pitches a sinker/slider guy can throw, hitters will figure him out by the 2nd time he goes through the order.

All true, except I was referring to the opposite - starters in the bullpen, not vice-versa.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by luckymann

All true, except I was referring to the opposite - starters in the bullpen, not vice-versa.

The same thing applies in reverse - if you have a starter who throws 5 mediocre pitches, he can be a very effective starter but in the bullpen he’ll probably only throw the first 2 or 3.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The same thing applies in reverse - if you have a starter who throws 5 mediocre pitches, he can be a very effective starter but in the bullpen he’ll probably only throw the first 2 or 3.

This was the guy who first caught my attention with this. One factor at play might be that during his time with me his ratings dropped 15 points and have dropped another 7 since I traded him. He is also somewhat injury-prone. Still, 10+ points seems a big drop, even more so if what you are saying is true, as he has 3.5 pretty decent pitches in his repertoire.

[Dave Stieb II]

I've made the same observation re SP losing overall and potential ratings points when converted to relievers.
This is new to OOTP21. In the previous 3 versions, I'm pretty sure every SP I transferred to the BP got a boost in his overall and potential ratings - which isn't practical either and I am GUESSING this change in '21 was meant to address that.
There are elements to the change I really like - for instance, not EVERY SP gets a 5 point ratings boost for stuff just because he's switched to RP. That is an improvement and more realistic.
But it does ensure we spend much more time assessing the stuff, movement, control and individual pitch ratings potential - especially in the lower minors. Too many SP with potential of say, 33 on a 20-80 ratings scale, drop to 20 as relievers even when they are clearly better suited to the BP....and better than a lot of the relievers at the same level that I am comparing them to.
That is definitely NOT realistic.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by luckymann

This was the guy who first caught my attention with this. One factor at play might be that during his time with me his ratings dropped 15 points and have dropped another 7 since I traded him. He is also somewhat injury-prone. Still, 10+ points seems a big drop, even more so if what you are saying is true, as he has 3.5 pretty decent pitches in his repertoire.

Two things to note there are that:

1. Assuming you’re using a 1-100 scale he’s got a B to B+ primary pitch and a B- second pitch. Yeah I could see how he’d be kind of mediocre, especially given that his MOV and CON aren’t out of this world.

2. If you make him your closer, the ratings are comparing him here to all closers, I believe, not just all relievers. Closers tend to be the best guy in the pen and so this probably skews his rating down slightly.

3. There could be synergy issues with the exact pitches he throws but that’s 100% speculation on my part. The sinker-slider combination is deadly IRL because they look similar coming out but then break differently enough that if you guess wrong you’ll swing and miss. 4 seamer - curve - change are perfectly normal but don’t necessarily synergize well with each other.