A litte update!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You are not idiots, you're persons entitled to your own option. But everyones complaines like there will be no AI development whatsoever.

We complain because resources that could have been spent on making the actual game itself better will instead be used to create 3D eye candy. Which will not improve the actual game even an iota.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Markus and crew should just release the game in spreadsheet format, I bet they would save tons of money


"OOTP Baseball 16, the best AI a game has ever had"

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

The challenge that Markus obviously faces is how to balance the two without alienating one group or the other. Judging by the tenor of this thread, I wish him all the luck in the world with that.

Given that a number of us are firmly opposed to putting resources into graphics instead of the actual simulation, and see that as wasting resources, you're right. Either the eye candy crowd or the simulation improvement crowd will be alienated no matter what he chooses to do.

[Caporegime]

I just want to add one more rambling thought to the muck & mire.

Some of us have really bad memories here. Every year Markus gives us an opportunity to request the addition of new features for the upcoming version of OOTP, and every year he adds at least one (some years more than one). While I'm not a big of the addition of 3D, you'd have to have your head buried deep in a pungent mud pile not to acknowledge that the addition of graphics have consistently been one of the most requested features many of our fellow OOTP 'ers have made over the years. Markus, always responsive to his customer base, finally adds it, but like any new feature, it needs a lot of work.

Believe me, I know Markus doesn't need me to defend him, but all he did today was state the obvious. Comparatively speaking, the AI is fine compared to the current state of OOTP's fledgling graphics engine. It's the rusty hinge that currently needs the most oil. This feature has already been added to the game and it needs to be implemented properly, but nowhere did he state that he will do so at the expense of the AI. If anything, Markus should be commended for not being like so many other game developers who simply half-ass everything.

I wonder if those complaining would genuinely feel the same way if Markus expressed a desire to devote more resources to a new feature that they wanted added to the game? I certainly know I wouldn't (Tournament Mode, anyone?)

[byzeil]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Time, effort, and money wasted on 3D, that's what.

I couldn't care less about 3D in OOTP but for Markus this is his livelihood, and his baby, and if he determines that adding 3D is going to increase his income significantly then that is what he will do for his business. Is there a chance that the AI improvements will suffer from a lack of attention, sure, but I trust Markus not to let his baby suffer that fate. Doesn't hurt to state our opinions but the hyperbole takes power from those opinions.

If 3D increases sales enough it could actually lead to more resources to work on the AI. Markus has to continue to try to grow his customer base.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Given that a number of us are firmly opposed to putting resources into graphics instead of the actual simulation, and see that as wasting resources, you're right. Either the eye candy crowd or the simulation improvement crowd will be alienated no matter what he chooses to do.

The "eye candy crowd"? Really, Wolfy? Is that how far this conversation has degenerated where we're now labeling the people with whom we have a perceived disagreement?

Besides, how can you state unequivocally that they are fewer in number? Did you conduct a scientific poll, or something? I seem to recall quite a lot of people requesting that particular feature, but nowhere did I see anyone state that they wanted that feature added at the expense of the AI, including Markus. If so, please show me where.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Nope.

I'm holding out hope that someday, there will be an OOTP Basketball game...

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I just want to add one more rambling thought to the muck & mire.

Some of us have really bad memories here. Every year Markus gives us an opportunity to request the addition of new features for the upcoming version of OOTP, and every year he adds at least one (some years more than one). While I'm not a big of the addition of 3D, you'd have to have your head buried deep in a pungent mud pile not to acknowledge that the addition of graphics have consistently been one of the most requested features many of our fellow OOTP 'ers have made over the years. Markus, always responsive to his customer base, finally adds it, but like any new feature, it needs a lot of work.

Believe me, I know Markus doesn't need me to defend him, but all he did today was state the obvious. Comparatively speaking, the AI is fine compared to the current state of OOTP's fledgling graphics engine. It's the rusty hinge that currently needs the most oil. This feature has already been added to the game and it needs to be implemented properly, but nowhere did he state that he will do so at the expense of the AI. If anything, Markus should be commended for not being like so many other game developers who simply half-ass everything.

I wonder if those complaining would genuinely feel the same way if Markus expressed a desire to devote more resources to a new feature that they wanted added to the game? I certainly know I wouldn't (Tournament Mode, anyone?)

Some folks will always complain no matter what. I remember back when Markus implemented sound into OOTP, some folks complained about that for some of the same reasons they're complaining about 3D

[hluraven]

Originally Posted by pjh5165

I'll make it simple: 1 3D programmer salary = 1 3D programmer salary that many of us would rather see spent on other improvements

Too simple - 1 3D programmer salary may well equal the same amount (or more) of increased revenue, allowing further improvements on other areas. It's a no-lose thing, improved graphics leading to more sales, leading to more revenue to hire more programmers to focus on AI or other improvements.

It really isn't an either/or, it is an iterative process.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I just want to add one more rambling thought to the muck & mire.

Some of us have really bad memories here. Every year Markus gives us an opportunity to request the addition of new features for the upcoming version of OOTP, and every year he adds at least one (some years more than one). While I'm not a big of the addition of 3D, you'd have to have your head buried deep in a pungent mud pile not to acknowledge that the addition of graphics have consistently been one of the most requested features many of our fellow OOTP 'ers have made over the years. Markus, always responsive to his customer base, finally adds it, but like any new feature, it needs a lot of work.

Believe me, I know Markus doesn't need me to defend him, but all he did today was state the obvious. Comparatively speaking, the AI is fine compared to the current state of OOTP's fledgling graphics engine. It's the rusty hinge that currently needs the most oil. This feature has already been added to the game and it needs to be implemented properly, but nowhere did he state that he will do so at the expense of the AI. If anything, Markus should be commended for not being like so many other game developers who simply half-ass everything.

I wonder if those complaining would genuinely feel the same way if Markus expressed a desire to devote more resources to a new feature that they wanted added to the game? I certainly know I wouldn't (Tournament Mode, anyone?)

My eyes lit up when I saw tournament mode mentioned.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

The "eye candy crowd"? Really, Wolfy? Is that how far this conversation has degenerated where we're now labeling the people with whom we have a perceived disagreement?

Besides, how can you state unequivocally that they are fewer in number? Did you conduct a scientific poll, or something? I seem to recall quite a lot of people requesting that particular feature, but nowhere did I see anyone state that they wanted that feature added at the expense of the AI, including Markus. If so, please show me where.

1. 3D gaming graphics are also referred to as eye candy. Talk to a graphics programmer or read a PC game magazine.

2. I did not state they were fewer in number. You made that up. There might be more of them. It doesn't matter, I still think that anyone supporting eye candy over actual game improvements in a text-based simulation has his...well, let's just say that I think that their priorities are horribly misguided and leave it at that. They have every right to that opinion, and I have every right to be horrified by it and think that it's terribly wrong.

3. Any effort devoted to eye candy is effort not devoted to not making the actual text-based baseball simulation better, but just prettier. Bah. The game's the thing.

There are two sides to this and they will never agree.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Some folks will always complain no matter what. I remember back when Markus implemented sound into OOTP, some folks complained about that for some of the same reasons they're complaining about 3D

Yes, and a number of us turn the sound off and think that was wasted effort that should have been out into improving the actual game.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Yes, and a number of us turn the sound off and think that was wasted effort that should have been out into improving the actual game.

Like removing nicknames?

I see the light now!

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My eyes lit up when I saw tournament mode mentioned.

As well it should.

It was actually your idea here that has help make me a full convert to the idea that OOTP desperately needs this feature. I just posted something last week where I was lamenting the inability to create World Cup style tournaments inside OOTP, and someone (The Wolf, actually) referred me to that earlier thread of yours. I actually thanked you for posting it way back in March, but your idea didn't fully sink in until I re-read your post last week.

I think your idea of creating tournaments containing historical teams is absolutely stellar. The possibilties to mix and match, the different combinations that one could try, could potentially be endless. For Example: A tournament could contain 64 of the best teams by record in MLB history, or the worst, 64 of the best Yankees teams, Red Sox teams, Deadball era vs steroid era teams, random teams, etc., etc. Like I said....endless possibilities. I could probably cruise on that one feature exclusively over the next 3-4 versions of OOTP and not need any other new features.

At any rate, we should make a big push to get that feature added when Markus starts accepting new suggestions for the next version. Sure, The Wolf might label us the "Tournament Crowd", or the "Tourney Gurneys", but it'll be well worth it if we can get that feature added.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Yes, and a number of us turn the sound off and think that was wasted effort that should have been out into improving the actual game.

The AI in OOTP has improved since the implementation of sound. So I would disagree with your assumption that the OOTP team has neglected the AI.

But, I still love ya anyways Wolfie!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Like removing nicknames?

I see the light now!

AI improvements, bug fixes, post-season changes, etc., etc.

But you knew that and were just taking a personal shot.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

The AI in OOTP has improved since the implementation of sound. So I would disagree with your assumption that the OOTP team has neglected the AI.

But, I still love ya anyways Wolfie!

It was resources taken away from the actual game. You guys might've had tournament mode instead of sound.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

AI improvements, bug fixes, post-season changes, etc., etc.

But you knew that and were just taking a personal shot.

Not personal at all, I've been asking for an option to remove nicknames since OOTP13 and that option would improve the game for me...No sarcasm here If I had to pick between sound or removing nicknames, sound would get the axe.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

1. 3D gaming graphics are also referred to as eye candy. Talk to a graphics programmer or read a PC game magazine.

Sure they do, but they don't disparage people who enjoy graphics as "the eye candy crowd". The term "eye candy" is innocuous, so is the word "crowd". However, place them together in the context in which you did and those words amount to only one thing...an insult. Re-read what you wrote.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

2. I did not state they were fewer in number. You made that up. There might be more of them. It doesn't matter, I still think that anyone supporting eye candy over actual game improvements in a text-based simulation has his...well, let's just say that I think that their priorities are horribly misguided and leave it at that. They have every right to that opinion, and I have every right to be horrified by it and think that it's terribly wrong.

No, but you certainly keep implying as much with us this "us" and "we" and "great numbers of us" stuff. It's a commonly used tactic by people who want others to believe that their argument carries more weight by virtue of its overwhelming popularity, even when it doesn't.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

3. Any effort devoted to eye candy is effort not devoted to not making the actual text-based baseball simulation better, but just prettier. Bah. The game's the thing.

And you know this....how, exactly? You mean, Markus hasn't proven he possesses the ability multitask in the past? Why would you assume that if one is worked on, the other automatically gets neglected? I simply don't see this as a zero sum game.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

There are two sides to this and they will never agree.

Maybe, maybe not. However, I do believe that once this feature is implemented fully and properly into the game it will enhance the gaming experience for many, including some of the people here complaining.

[The Wolf]

Believe what you want, Capo. Like sound, I will never use it.