Take out Children Dying in OOTP

[Nunyer]

Yea... then there were those two minor leaguers in the Colorado organization that gang raped that girl...

how about a drunken speedboat accident where your player is decapitated... you could even milk that one with a line about his grieving wife and emotionally scarred children!!!

ohh... and then your star outfield can pull a Kirby Puckett and try to stangle his wife with an extension cord!

Please OOTP... I need more immersion... The sweet sweet mana of immersion... make me forget that I'm essentially lording over spreadsheets...

*yawn*

EDIT: Just went back and re-read this... And for the record, it's not directed at OOTP itself or anybody involved in the production... Was just a knee-jerk reaction to all the silly "OMG!! NOT TEH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!" posts.

[Questdog]

I just made an english.xml file where no owners die, but it is a little too big to post here.....I'll send it to OOTPmods.com to post there and anyone can PM me an email address and I'll send it to you......

[philliesphan26]

Originally Posted by Nunyer

Yea... then there were those two minor leaguers in the Colorado organization that gang raped that girl...

how about a drunken speedboat accident where your player is decapitated... you could even milk that one with a line about his grieving wife and emotionally scarred children!!!

ohh... and then your star outfield can pull a Kirby Puckett and try to stangle his wife with an extension cord!

Please OOTP... I need more immersion... The sweet sweet mana of immersion... make me forget that I'm essentially lording over spreadsheets...

*yawn*

EDIT: Just went back and re-read this... And for the record, it's not directed at OOTP itself or anybody involved in the production... Was just a knee-jerk reaction to all the silly "OMG!! NOT TEH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!" posts.

You are blowing this out of proportion. No one is asking for gang rapes and decapitations. There's a difference between incidents that are, for all intents and purposes, give or take, once in a century incidents (rapes, or a major league player being killed/murdering someone/committing suicide) and things that seem to happen every season or once every few seasons (a child passing, DUIs, LONG drug suspensions, racial tirades). It's a quite obviously a sensitive topic as evidenced by the responses here, and I can respect both views. For some people though, these things DO increase realism or immersion. There's no need to be snarky about it (not to say others aren't being snarky about it, but, let's be honest here, yours is over the top and directed at people like me), it's just the way others play and enjoy the game.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Two terrific posts in a row.

Standard.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I just made an english.xml file where no owners die, but it is a little too big to post here.....I'll send it to OOTPmods.com to post there and anyone can PM me an email address and I'll send it to you......

Good work.

[JMDurron]

Can we just trade the dead children for dead old people? It's both realistic AND a viable fiscal strategy for the world. The players aren't all from the clan Macleod.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bailey

Now, let's get rid of owner deaths. Teams should be SOLD like most teams are in rl.

Well in real life the owners as a group vote on whether to approve a sale or not. Which actually could lead to something for OOTP down the road if interactive winter meetings are ever implemented. In addition to the user casting their vote for or against a particular rule change, you could cast a vote to approve or reject a club sale. Imagine, from news stories you get a sense of what the owner's character is like, and you think he's just going to be trouble (e.g. Jeffrey Loria) so you decide, nope, don't want him amongst the ownership ranks... but then the rest of those brain-dead (AI) owners vote for the sale anyway...

[Nunyer]

Originally Posted by philliesphan26

You are blowing this out of proportion. No one is asking for gang rapes and decapitations. There's a difference between incidents that are, for all intents and purposes, give or take, once in a century incidents (rapes, or a major league player being killed/murdering someone/committing suicide) and things that seem to happen every season or once every few seasons (a child passing, DUIs, LONG drug suspensions, racial tirades). It's a quite obviously a sensitive topic as evidenced by the responses here, and I can respect both views. For some people though, these things DO increase realism or immersion. There's no need to be snarky about it (not to say others aren't being snarky about it, but, let's be honest here, yours is over the top and directed at people like me), it's just the way others play and enjoy the game.

Fair enough... Of course, I was intentionally being over the top... I am not legitimately suggesting that wife beating story lines get added... but they happen a helluva lot more than once a century. Same thing with players being killed... dozens have died over the last century during their careers. Plane crashes, cancer, drunken boat accidents, murder... you name it.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, as you just attested to, so what exactly is the problem with child death being behind that line? According to some posters, well... that's just caving to weak political correctness... blah blah blah.

[kq76]

OOTP's new tag line: "Nothing, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2sKH8yjVsM".

[Nunyer]

Before the actual video played.... Youtube's advertisement was a 30 second public service announcement showing drunk drivers being arrested.

OOTP15: Now with 100% more DUI!!!

[injury log]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You think that just because someone done does something that they automatically deserve praise for it?

Is it possible to have a conversation with you that does not immediately devolve into straw men? If I thought that, I would have said that. What I actually did say was that storylines in v14 are "almost infinitely better" than in v13, and for that reason the work deserves praise.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I praise those who make mods that I value - Justafan, for example - but I do not praise those whose work I do not value.

I never suggested you ought to praise the work that was done on storylines. I quite explicitly said it was fine that you don't like them - how could I feel otherwise? But if you had an artist friend who worked on an oil painting for three months, and gave it to you as a gift, of course no one can make you like the painting. But you can just stash it in your garage and never look at it again. It's needless cruelty to tell the artist that her painting is terrible. And it's even more cruel to go on the internet and try to persuade everyone else she's an awful painter, especially when her work was done purely out of good will.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And my way - and that of others - is with storylines off and you need to realize and accept that that's okay. Not everyone is going to like what you do or want to do things your way.

Thank you for this patronizing nonsense. Obviously it's fine with me that you don't like storylines. I think we all understand that people enjoy different things about OOTP, which is why we value the customization the game affords. I just wish you'd have some consideration for the feelings of the people who make volunteer contributions to this game to try to make it better for everyone.

[philliesphan26]

Originally Posted by Nunyer

Fair enough... Of course, I was intentionally being over the top... I am not legitimately suggesting that wife beating story lines get added... but they happen a helluva lot more than once a century. Same thing with players being killed... dozens have died over the last century during their careers. Plane crashes, cancer, drunken boat accidents, murder... you name it.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, as you just attested to, so what exactly is the problem with child death being behind that line? According to some posters, well... that's just caving to weak political correctness... blah blah blah.

I understand where you're coming from. And considering that (as far as I know) the storylines don't affect players who haven't been in the majors (I could be wrong) I think it's safe to say that you really don't hear about players being murdered or killed in real life often. You're right in that I was exaggerating in regards to the once a century bit, like players dying (Darryl Kile, Roberto Clemente, Nick Adenhart, etc), but does it happen enough to really warrant being included in the game? Things like DUIs and players saying something insensitive happen every year it seems.

I honestly don't know where the line should be drawn. It really is a tough choice, and one that can't really be made without angering people. I personally don't think that a child's death should be behind that line (god it feels wrong typing that), as given the context of the game it doesn't seem nearly as bad as opposed to something excessively violent like a rape or murder.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by injury log

Is it possible to have a conversation with you that does not immediately devolve into straw men? If I thought that, I would have said that. What I actually did say was that storylines in v14 are "almost infinitely better" than in v13, and for that reason the work deserves praise.



I never suggested you ought to praise the work that was done on storylines. I quite explicitly said it was fine that you don't like them - how could I feel otherwise? But if you had an artist friend who worked on an oil painting for three months, and gave it to you as a gift, of course no one can make you like the painting. But you can just stash it in your garage and never look at it again. It's needless cruelty to tell the artist that her painting is terrible. And it's even more cruel to go on the internet and try to persuade everyone else she's an awful painter, especially when her work was done purely out of good will.



Thank you for this patronizing nonsense. Obviously it's fine with me that you don't like storylines. I think we all understand that people enjoy different things about OOTP, which is why we value the customization the game affords. I just wish you'd have some consideration for the feelings of the people who make volunteer contributions to this game to try to make it better for everyone.

Do you ever read what you write? Does "Nothing about your comments is remotely constructive, and if they lead volunteers to stop working on the game, then everyone playing OOTP loses" ring any bells?

Yes, I find storylines to be useless, and, by extension I find the work done on storylines to be useless. I don't care that the people who did it are "volunteers." You keep trying to get me to praise them and you keep denying that you're doing it. They get no praise from me until they do something that impresses me favorably, but so far your volunteers are way in my negative zone because I find storylines to be useless.

You like them? You praise them. I'd rather they did something else entirely.

[injury log]

And this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with "political correctness" (which, in its current usage, is a ridiculous pejorative term invented by the far right so they could summarily dismiss liberal positions without actually addressing them substantively). This has nothing to do with censorship or sanitizing the game, and all to do with whether the story makes the game more enjoyable to play.

I've long had mixed feelings about this particular story, since every time I see it I'm immediately taken out of the game world - it ruins immersion for me. But at the same time, there are other storylines I'd like to see in OOTP that some might find 'unsavory' or unwelcome, the kinds of things philliesphan alludes to in his post above, and I wonder if I'm being hypocritical objecting to this story, while at the same time wanting to see DUI stories and Biogenesis scandals and other off-field incidents in the game.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You keep trying to get me to praise them and you keep denying that you're doing it.

From straw men to false dichotomies. You don't have two options: praise storylines or mercilessly criticize them. You can just say nothing, for example. Or offer constructive criticism. Or say you don't like them but have the humility to acknowledge that's your own viewpoint only, rather than writing "turn storylines off" every chance you have on this forum.

[philliesphan26]

Originally Posted by injury log

And this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with "political correctness" (which, in its current usage, is a ridiculous pejorative term invented by the far right so they could summarily dismiss liberal positions without actually addressing them substantively). This has nothing to do with censorship or sanitizing the game, and all to do with whether the story makes the game more enjoyable to play.

I've long had mixed feelings about this particular story, since every time I see it I'm immediately taken out of the game world - it ruins immersion for me. But at the same time, there are other storylines I'd like to see in OOTP that some might find 'unsavory' or unwelcome, the kinds of things philliesphan alludes to in his post above, and I wonder if I'm being hypocritical objecting to this story, while at the same time wanting to see DUI stories and Biogenesis scandals and other off-field incidents in the game.

I'm not familiar with the "political correctness" as a perjorative, but I feel as though it's transcended that meaning to become something else other than it's original usage (kind of like the terms first-, second-, and third-world country).

Anyway, semantics aside, I value your point and that of Nunyer in that if OOTP wants to have storylines in the game, they have to decide on where exactly to draw the moral line. And that, quite apparently, just can't be done without community input (large scale, not just beta team).

[Fyrestorm3]

Honestly, I don't give a rat's behind about whether or not this storyline stays in the game. Does it affect the OOTP experience at all? No. Does it make it more realistic? Not enough to warrant its inclusion. So, I don't care.

What I DO care about is caving to the demand of someone who had an adverse reaction to something that was in the game. I mean, it's great that the OOTP team listens to its players. It's fantastic. But this was not an overwhelming majority calling for the removal of the story. In fact, it was pretty much split 50/50. So, when everything was equal, they listened to the ones who made the fuss. You know what would happen if we always listened to the people who made the fuss? We'd regress backwards. Storylines? Gone. Obscure injuries? Don't need 'em. Bugs in the latest patch? Better throw that one out completely. The game's too hard? Let's make it easier.

Take a look at some of the most praised games/books/movies/shows in recent years: Game of Thrones. The Walking Dead. The Hunger Games. The Last of Us. Spec Ops: The Line. Breaking Bad. Each one of those pushes the limits somehow. Were there people "outraged" at some of the scenes in them? Of course there were. There's nudity in Game of Thrones! Over-the-top violence in The Walking Dead! Kids die in The Hunger Games! The point I'm trying to make here is that people are ALWAYS going to get offended at SOMETHING. When we start listening to the people who get offended, we start playing it safe. And when we play it safe, we end up with yet another romantic comedy and yet another Call of Duty.

I'm not saying that the decision to remove this storyline is automatically going to lead down that slope. In fact, I sincerely doubt it will. But it certainly is worrying to see such a knee-jerk reaction from the dev team.

EDIT: I should note that I understand that VG's thread (linked above) was tongue-in-cheek. But the reason he posted it was because there have been people who legitimately complained about those type of injuries.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Honestly, I don't give a rat's behind about whether or not this storyline stays in the game. Does it affect the OOTP experience at all? No. Does it make it more realistic? Not enough to warrant its inclusion. So, I don't care.

What I DO care about is caving to the demand of someone who had an adverse reaction to something that was in the game. I mean, it's great that the OOTP team listens to its players. It's fantastic. But this was not an overwhelming majority calling for the removal of the story. In fact, it was pretty much split 50/50. So, when everything was equal, they listened to the ones who made the fuss. You know what would happen if we always listened to the people who made the fuss? We'd regress backwards. Storylines? Gone. Obscure injuries? Don't need 'em. Bugs in the latest patch? Better throw that one out completely. The game's too hard? Let's make it easier.

Take a look at some of the most praised games/books/movies/shows in recent years: Game of Thrones. The Walking Dead. The Hunger Games. The Last of Us. Spec Ops: The Line. Breaking Bad. Each one of those pushes the limits somehow. Were there people "outraged" at some of the scenes in them? Of course there were. There's nudity in Game of Thrones! Over-the-top violence in The Walking Dead! Kids die in The Hunger Games! The point I'm trying to make here is that people are ALWAYS going to get offended at SOMETHING. When we start listening to the people who get offended, we start playing it safe. And when we play it safe, we end up with yet another romantic comedy.

I'm not saying that the decision to remove this storyline is automatically going to lead down that slope. In fact, I sincerely doubt it will. But it certainly is worrying to see such a knee-jerk reaction from the dev team.

I get your overall point (and I am in the "Take the Dying Kids Out" camp). However, I beg of you, Sir, please, Please, PLEASE! do not ever ever associate Hunger Games with Breaking Bad as an artistic equivalent, ever again.

Thank You.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I get your overall point (and I am in the "Take the Dying Kids Out" camp). However, I beg of you, Sir, please, Please, PLEASE! do not ever ever associate Hunger Games with Breaking Bad as an artistic equivalent, ever again.

Thank You.

I said "praised," not "good." HUGE difference.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

But it certainly is worrying to see such a knee-jerk reaction from the dev team.

Let's at least be clear about the facts. This storyline has been in the game since OOTP13. There have been discussions about it here, and also private discussions about it on the beta forum. It's taken 18 months for it to be removed. It's hardly a "knee-jerk reaction", and whoever decided to remove the story has had an awfully long time to consider many points of view about it.

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

What I DO care about is caving to the demand of someone who had an adverse reaction to something that was in the game. I mean, it's great that the OOTP team listens to its players. It's fantastic. But this was not an overwhelming majority calling for the removal of the story. In fact, it was pretty much split 50/50.

I agree with you about this, in principle, but I don't know that this happens with OOTP. I know that on the beta forum, I've often "made a fuss" about things I don't like. Sometimes that leads to changes to the game, and sometimes Markus says "I like it the way it is". It's certainly not true that the game is changed in response to any vocal objection to something. And I'm not sure I can name a feature in the game enabled by default that 50% of the OOTP user base dislikes. That seems like rather a lot of discontented users to me, and if it's true that half the user base dislikes this storyline, that seems to me quite a good reason to remove it or edit it.