Pitcher Roles

[RonCo]

Dola...this is another area that would benefit from the inclusion of a quality rating assigned to each pitch, btw.

[Long_Long_Name]

Pitching is one of my main beefs with OOTP. The way it's handled is just wrong. The model Markus created aims at producing results that are as close as possible as MLB as possible. However, that is very, very restrictive, and leaves absolutely no room for imagination. For example, I don't think that using my best reliever in the way current MLB managers use them is the best way to go - however, there is no way in OOTP to decide that I want my best pitcher to pitch whenever the game is tied, or whatever other criteria I want. That is very, very frustrating. Also frustrating is starters getting fatigue from pitching 10 pitches in a game, and not being able to pitch for a while after. I know it's there to mirror MLB, but it seems a bit botched. Aesthetically, it looks accurate, but it looks like a very poor comprehension and reproduction of the actual pitching aspect of baseball - it's more of an MLB simulation than a baseball simulation, and I do have a problem with that. I hoped that the recoding would change things, but I doubt that I'll get an accurate pitching model. It's a shame, especially considering all the work that's been done with DIPS, that pitchers' options are so limited and so... untrue.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Deft

I don' t think I have the definitive answer but playing ball at several level, I can try and explain what goes into the roles and why I would revamp the ratings.

Starting Pitcher-
Has more than 2 pitches that he can throw in the zone
Has the stamina to stay in the game for more than 5 innings
Has problems recovering from pitching in a short time span (not a requirement but could prevent them from relieving often)

Closer-
Has nerve to not get rattled and face pressure situations
Has one or two outstanding pitches
Often doesn't have 3-4 pitches to get hitters out multiple times
Has quick recovery skills

Middle Relievers-
Has rubber arm that allows them to throw several innings several days in a row
Often doesn't have the skills of the other two roles

So I think the pitchers should have pitches (Fastball, Curveball, etc..) that they have ratings in. I also think Endurace and Recovery should be separated.

If the individual pitch ratings can get rolled up into a general rating that would make it as accessible to the moderate player as it is currently.

Great post. I love the recovery idea in addition to endurance and I'd love to see pitches get their own ratings. If not both eventually, then hopefully we'll see at least one.

Your last point about there needing to be overall ratings would probably be necessary though so that some are not overwhelmed. I'm not sure if you mean those overall ratings should be like the existing stuff, control, movement ratings that are like averages of what the pitcher usually throws or you mean each pitch would have an overall rating. Either way I'm guessing you'd want each pitch to have a stuff, movement and control rating or something like that. Perhaps you'd like to clarify.

BTW, there was another interesting thread along these lines at: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=104627

[battists]

One possibility would be to allow "roles" but separate them from "position". In other words, all pitchers would just be pitchers, and would show up as so in the FA list or draft list. Of course, scouts are free to say "Probably best as a reliever" or whatever.

The role, then would be an arbitrary assignment that managers could make that simply defines how the manager intends on using the player. This would then trigger a reaction from the player. They could be fine with it, they could come back and say "I can start in this league, dammit!"

Obviously, I'm not addressing the other issues here, just thought I'd throw this out regarding pitcher "roles".

I think another possibility is to give each pitcher a "situations" page or section. In some ways, this would be like the new filter functionality. You could set up specific criteria like this:

Always/Sometimes/Never
use this pitcher when
inning >= 5
and score difference < 2
and my team is winning
and next hitter is left-handed

leave pitcher in
until he gets into trouble/for X pitches/for X batters/until the next X-handed hitter/until the end of the inning/until he is tired

And so on. That would give incredible flexibility to defining how pitchers are used.

Just a thought!

[battists]

Intended role could also play a role in resigning and FA negotiations. And if a manager reneges (lures a player by promising a starting gig, then making them a reliever), it should really hurt the player's opinion of the team.

[Faroo6]

Originally Posted by battists

Intended role could also play a role in resigning and FA negotiations. And if a manager reneges (lures a player by promising a starting gig, then making them a reliever), it should really hurt the player's opinion of the team.

It should also hurt other players opinion of the manager/GM and would make it harder to sign other players there during that manager/GM's tenure. Could also have players go public or keep issue in house too. Those would effect other player's knowledge of the situation.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Faroo6

It should also hurt other players opinion of the manager/GM and would make it harder to sign other players there during that manager/GM's tenure. Could also have players go public or keep issue in house too. Those would effect other player's knowledge of the situation.

Yea, it should probably depend on the player. Some players might be unhappy, but aren't going to publically complain about things or do anything that would lessen other peoples opinion of the organization. I guess this would mean somehow implementing some type of player personalities into the game.

[rocknfire7]

Originally Posted by Deft

I don' t think I have the definitive answer but playing ball at several level, I can try and explain what goes into the roles and why I would revamp the ratings.

Starting Pitcher-
Has more than 2 pitches that he can throw in the zone
Has the stamina to stay in the game for more than 5 innings
Has problems recovering from pitching in a short time span (not a requirement but could prevent them from relieving often)

Closer-
Has nerve to not get rattled and face pressure situations
Has one or two outstanding pitches
Often doesn't have 3-4 pitches to get hitters out multiple times
Has quick recovery skills

Middle Relievers-
Has rubber arm that allows them to throw several innings several days in a row
Often doesn't have the skills of the other two roles

So I think the pitchers should have pitches (Fastball, Curveball, etc..) that they have ratings in. I also think Endurace and Recovery should be separated.

If the individual pitch ratings can get rolled up into a general rating that would make it as accessible to the moderate player as it is currently.

As a former pitcher I agree with the above. Having endurance and recovery seperate would add a lot of realism to the game. We could see a pitchers rating fluctuate like the batters ratings but to a much greater scale, like possibly from outing to outing? I also like the idea of having pitchers/players giving more input about how they feel about the roles given to them. A manager could have the option to tell them to suck it up or ride the bus in AAA

[jcurtis423]

Am I wrong in my impression that most major league middle relievers are failed starters? There are not a whole lot of pitchers who are developed as relievers until it's pretty clear cut that they will not make the cut as starters.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by jcurtis423

Am I wrong in my impression that most major league middle relievers are failed starters? There are not a whole lot of pitchers who are developed as relievers until it's pretty clear cut that they will not make the cut as starters.

This is pretty much the case...most minor league relievers are guys that aren't expected to make the majors or are starters who have had injury problems. I would guess that around 90% of pitchers that are drafted were starting pitchers in college/high school.

[andymac]

Another thing that should probably be implemented into the game is that pitching in relief will typically add a couple miles an hour to what a pitcher can throw since they are not in the game for the long haul.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by andymac

Another thing that should probably be implemented into the game is that pitching in relief will typically add a couple miles an hour to what a pitcher can throw since they are not in the game for the long haul.

Good point.

[Yankees227]

I have no problem with the current system, just that if a guy has an endurance rating of like 7 or more he should always be a SP. The one major problem is that when the computer teams put their pitching prospect in the bullpen and change him to MR, then during the trading process he isn't valued properly, same thing with 5 (blue)star relievers, who aren't good pitchers, they just have good endurance

[battists]

Originally Posted by andymac

Another thing that should probably be implemented into the game is that pitching in relief will typically add a couple miles an hour to what a pitcher can throw since they are not in the game for the long haul.

I'd like to see velocity have more of an impact on the game, if only in conjunction with other pitching statistics. Right now it seems to have no noticeable effect in OOTP 6, and let's face it, velocity does matter. Or maybe try to clear up the difference between "Stuff" and "Velocity" somehow. That always been a little confusing.

Total tangent:

How cool would it be if some players got injured, but you didn't know it? In other words, instead of getting the "So and so was injured, he's out for 6 weeks," you might see his speed drop, or suddenly have crappy outings. Then you might get an e-mail from the pitching coach saying, "Bill Smith has a hitch in his throwing motion. I think there's something wrong with his shoulder. The trainer is going to take a look at it this afternoon."

[Aordolin]

My only suggestion would be to have the pitcher roles actually work since they never worked really that well in OOTP 6 and not at all in 6.5. The roles you assign them in is what they should be used in. Closers should be used baring injury 90%+ of the time in save situations. Middle relievers should almost NEVER get a save. NEVER. Setup men should rarely get them. Go look at a major league team if you dont believe me. The use of pitchers is also screwed up. I assumed, maybe incorrectly that the pitchers would be used in the order listed on the pitching depth charts. And that setupmen would be used more than middle relievers and middle reliever #1 would be used more than middle reliever #3. But that doesnt happen. The game ends up using some garbage reliever you dont expect over your 4 star reliever you expected to get the ball in more ciritical situations. I like what I saw in one of the screenshots though. I like the ability to be able to set 2 closers. Just make the statistical output realistic please and make the roles mean something.

[FrankieB]

LOOGY needs to be added to game. Mike Myers is a FA in demand! I dont think in the game pitchers would have such a big split as Myers but it would be nice to be included.

[draven085]

Originally Posted by andymac

This is pretty much the case...most minor league relievers are guys that aren't expected to make the majors or are starters who have had injury problems. I would guess that around 90% of pitchers that are drafted were starting pitchers in college/high school.

I've felt for a long time that OOTP generates far too many amateur middle relievers. Ideally the game would generate more amateurs as starters and incorporate some sort of method by which you could convert a pitcher from a starter to a reliever and vice versa, thus effecting his his ratings on multiple levels. As you mention a pitcher transitioning to a full-time relief role should receieve boosts to his velocity, and his ratings (and perhaps talents?) across the board at the expense of his endurance. Were the game to allow you to convert a reliever into a full-time starter I'd like to see it work exactly the opposite. I really think the addition of some in-game mechanism to handle this switch would add a significant amount of depth and realism to the experience of developing a pitcher.

[CobaltJays]

I'd like to see two endurance ratings: Current Endurance and Maximum Possible Endurance. The Current rating would fluctuate depending on the pitcher's usage, while the Max rating would mostly remain constant.

For example, if a pitcher has been a starter his entire career and then becomes a short reliever for a few years, after a while he would have a hard time throwing more than a couple innings per game. His Current Endurance rating would fall. He may still be able to become a starter (due to a high Max Endurance rating that hasn't changed), but it would take him a while to get back up to that point. His Current rating would gradually get closer to his Max rating as his workload increased. This could also apply to a starting pitcher who has been out with an injury for an extended period of time.

[halos17]

Guys,

After reading this thread I am hopeful that Markus is reading and will at some point consider the threads in this post. I think you all have put forth some great ideas. Truly the beauty of these forums.

[SirRich]

I am also currently frustrated with the current pitching system. In the majors the bullpen often has better ERA's than the starters. However, in the OOTP world it rare to see a stud reliever. This is how I believe it should work.

Most major league relievers are failed starters for one of the following reasons:

1) Endurance
2) Lack of quality 3rd or 4th pitch.

Just about any pitcher should be better coming out of the bullpen than as a starter. Example: Smoltz-he was stud starter, but became almost unhittable as a reliever. Gagne-was a struggling starter, but when he could rear back for an inning or two he became a complete stud.

My model would be:

A) Keep the normal pitch ratings, endurance, and pitches.
B) No Set Roles. You place them in the role you see fit.
C) Pitcher ratings are based on them being a starter.
D) If they are used as a reliever their ratings become boosted. (This would be hidden though. You won't know how much extra they are able to bring to the table until you try it.)
E) A starter with low endurance will lose effectiveness after a certain number of pitches which is the way it works now.
F) A pitcher with only one or two pitches will have a ratings hit the 2nd and 3rd time through the order.
G) I would like to see endurance hidden. That way you it is up to you to figure out why your guy with stud ratings doesn't quite live up to the potential.

So Gagne my be ratings of 9's and 10's, but will start losing effectiveness because of a lack of 3rd or 4th pitch. However, with a ratings boost he becomes dominant. Smoltz might be a 9 or 10 ratings with good endurance. However, as a reliever he becomes a complete stud. A guy with decent ratings of 5 or 6 could become an effective reliever because he can dial it up alot coming from the bullpen.

I think this would be the most realistic.