Can we consider supporting a "Swingman" pitching role?

[uruguru]

The swingman is basically a team's extra starter, usually for doubleheaders.

For example, if your league is set to use 5-man rotations and you NEVER have a doubleheader then, barring injury, you will never need a swingman.

But in the historical era when there are doubleheaders, a swingman will generally be need to start 6-7 games per season.

There's currently no support for this so what I have to do is project when I will need a swingman (i.e. a doubleheader is coming up). Then, 3 days before his projected start, I pull my swingman out of the bullpen and place him in the #6 spot of my 5-man rotation. This ensures that he doesn't get used in relief and is able to start when he is needed.

Currently, the OOTP AI doesn't look ahead and project when it will need an extra pitcher. Therefore it's a crapshoot as to whether you will have a pitcher available. It's sort of gut-wrenching to get all of the way to the doubleheader and then see your swingman (i.e. Game 2 starter) throw 3 relief innings in the first game when there are other relievers available!

Therefore I always have to manage my rotation closely.

Anyway, if the devs are looking for ways to improve their managing of a team's starting rotation, this would be a good place to start.

[David Watts]

In terms of historical play, I still say we need the ability to do away with bullpens altogether. Now, I know a bunch of you are going to say, but Ralph, you can already do this. You can set the rotation to 4 or 5 or 6 and simply set the bullpen size to 0. Problem is, if you set the rotation to 6 and use "Always start the highest rested" starting pitchers will start in the hood of 28 games. That's not enough when playing deadball, the 20's or the 30's.

What we need is the ability to set the rotation to 5, 6, 7 or even 8 with 0 pitchers in bullpen, but tell the game that we want the start highest rested to center on the top 3 or 4 or 5 pitchers as starters and to only make use of the remaining pitchers as starters when needed. Hopefully, doing away with bullpens and simply having a pitching staff will allow us to play the early periods without seeing some cat making 30 to 50 relief appearances without ever starting a game.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Problem is, if you set the rotation to 6 and use "Always start the highest rested" starting pitchers will start in the hood of 28 games. That's not enough when playing deadball, the 20's or the 30's.

There's sort of a bug with "Always start the highest rested"

Let's say your #1 pitcher (in a 5-man rotation) gets routed and throws only 50 pitches. By the time the #5 starter is up, your #1 starter is 100% rested and absolutely should start instead of the #5. But OOTP says that, in the past 5 days, the #1 starter has thrown 50 pitches and the #5 starter has thrown zero, so the #5 starter is the "most rested".

If multiple starters are 100% rested, then "Always start the highest rested" should give precedence to the pitcher higher in the rotation.

This also pops up if you have a pitcher who threw an inning in the All-Star Game. Those pitches set him back in the rotation even if he's 100% rested.

[bwburke94]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "highest rested" is.

It's not the rested SP listed highest in the rotation; it's the rested SP who has had the most rest in the last five days. (Except when it's not; that part is the bug.)

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by uruguru

There's sort of a bug with "Always start the highest rested"

Let's say your #1 pitcher (in a 5-man rotation) gets routed and throws only 50 pitches. By the time the #5 starter is up, your #1 starter is 100% rested and absolutely should start instead of the #5. But OOTP says that, in the past 5 days, the #1 starter has thrown 50 pitches and the #5 starter has thrown zero, so the #5 starter is the "most rested".

If multiple starters are 100% rested, then "Always start the highest rested" should give precedence to the pitcher higher in the rotation.

This also pops up if you have a pitcher who threw an inning in the All-Star Game. Those pitches set him back in the rotation even if he's 100% rested.

In my experience, that is not the case:











Rios is the 1, Rowland the 5. Both 100% rested, but Rios pitched in the last five days. Gives priority to the #1

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "highest rested" is.

It's not the rested SP listed highest in the rotation; it's the rested SP who has had the most rest in the last five days. (Except when it's not; that part is the bug.)

What? No it's not this at all. It's guy in the rotation who:

a. is fully rested (that is, is at 100%), and
b. is the highest up in the rotation.

If you have your 1st, 2nd, or 3rd starters at 100%, the game will choose #1. If your 1st and 5th starters are 100%, whether your 5th guy is up next or not, it will always choose #1. If you have the latter and you go "strict order" the game will go with #5. If you have the middle setting it's... sometimes, I don't know if it's a random chance thing or if the game uses other factors to decide.

You may be confused by what happens when nobody is at 100% with the first two options. In that situation, regardless of what setting you've got, the game will push out the guy with the closest to 100% mark regardless of where he is in the rotation. If your #4 guy is at 95% and everyone else is below 80%, he's getting the nod. If you run a 4-man rotation in the modern era, whether you set that to "always start highest rested" or not, it will basically run out whoever is the most rested on any given day except in the very odd occasions that more than one player got full rest (due to injury or you moving the rotation around).

In that last scenario, where you have it set to "strict rotation", it will go from 1-4 or 1-5 in order regardless of who's the most rested. Again, this might be where you're getting confused. The workflow at the top is how "highest rested" works.

[mytreds]

Swingman? Sounds like a Spot Starter. Use that.

[Syd Thrift]

I don't believe the game uses spot starters this way though. You'd expect it to be like "hey, look at this, nobody in the rotation is at 100%, therefore it's time to turn to the spot man" but instead it seems like it does something along the lines of "okay, you set me to spot start 20% of the time, therefore I'm going to roll every time the last starter in the rotation might start and there's a 20% chance I'll start instead if I'm rested".

For historical schedules, with or without a spot starter it's my experience that the game will ignore a spot starter in favor of using the next guy / most rested guy even if that player is less rested than the spot starter.

[ayaghmour2]

I think terms are being mixed up. There is no "spot starter", but an "Emergency SP" who should be used only if there are no rested members of the rotation. The only issue is I have on idea what the AI does if the Emergency SP is not rested. Generally, if no rotation members are rested, but the emergency guy is, he'll make the start. With multiple emergency guys? Hopefully the most rested of that bunch

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, my bad. "Spot Starter" used to be in the game but it's been several versions now.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

I think terms are being mixed up. There is no "spot starter", but an "Emergency SP" who should be used only if there are no rested members of the rotation. The only issue is I have on idea what the AI does if the Emergency SP is not rested. Generally, if no rotation members are rested, but the emergency guy is, he'll make the start. With multiple emergency guys? Hopefully the most rested of that bunch

it doesn't work because stamina is not split into starter reliver.
AI works the same for every team so there is no managerial differences
Every replay is the same.
you have to play every game out or sim day by day to get the rotation you want

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

it doesn't work because stamina is not split into starter reliver.
AI works the same for every team so there is no managerial differences
Every replay is the same.
you have to play every game out or sim day by day to get the rotation you want

Not sure I understand you here, but it seems like you are misunderstood. Stamina functions different for relievers then starters. You can see on a player's page that they have a "Rest Status" that is designated for SP, RP, or sometimes both. A guy can be fully rested to start, but not fully rested to relieve, and vice-versa.

Check this guy out:



To start a game, he wouldn't be rested enough. But if you want to use him out of the pen? He's able to pitch some. Stamina may be one number, but rest does not work the same for SPs and RPs, and that is determined by stamina.

Also, every replay is the same? Even with real historical transactions/lineups you'll get different results every sim.

And the AI does not work the same for each team. Each manager and GM has their own tendencies. The AI works similar, but not every team is run the same.

[Syd Thrift]

Stamina IME doesn't really interact with relief pitchers all that much. Low-rated stamina guys can still pitch a lot of innings. I think in my experience playing in the early 70s and fictional leagues it's harder to get those 75 game, 125 inning type performances from them (and I've never had the guts to use a guy 106 games and 218 innings in relief like Mike Marshall), but in the modern era you're rarely if ever going to see those effects.

For earlier years and especially, again, fictional leagues, stamina can be a big deal in preventing some pitchers from being good starters but just as big a deal is if a guy only has 2 good pitches. Those kinds of players will rarely do very well even the 2nd time through the order and if you get them into the 3rd time, even guys with lights-out stuff will be average at best by that point if they don't have enough quality pitches.

TBH too this IMO is how the game should work things out, too. Give Kent Tekulve and Dan Quisenberry a 70/80 stamina but only have them throw the classic 70s siderarmer sinker/slider combo (I think both have different repertoires in the game). They shouldn't/won't get used as a starter and any human manager who tries to use them that way, stamina or no stamina, does so at their own risk.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

I think terms are being mixed up. There is no "spot starter", but an "Emergency SP" who should be used only if there are no rested members of the rotation. The only issue is I have on idea what the AI does if the Emergency SP is not rested. Generally, if no rotation members are rested, but the emergency guy is, he'll make the start. With multiple emergency guys? Hopefully the most rested of that bunch

The issue is that starters pitch in a rotation and that rotation is predictable because every team has a schedule and knows when doubleheaders are coming up.

Back when we had doubleheaders, when the team knew that a spot starter was needed, they set him aside (i.e. put him at the end of the rotation) and did not use him in relief so that he would be rested when he needed to start.

OOTP does not do this. OOTP keeps the emergency SP in the bullpen and he seems to be just as likely to be used as at any other point in the season. And often he is used right before his scheduled spot start and so the team has to throw out a tired starter instead.

It's a minor thing but it requires managing the rotation at a detail that was probably not intended.

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by uruguru

The issue is that starters pitch in a rotation and that rotation is predictable because every team has a schedule and knows when doubleheaders are coming up.

Back when we had doubleheaders, when the team knew that a spot starter was needed, they set him aside (i.e. put him at the end of the rotation) and did not use him in relief so that he would be rested when he needed to start.

OOTP does not do this. OOTP keeps the emergency SP in the bullpen and he seems to be just as likely to be used as at any other point in the season. And often he is used right before his scheduled spot start and so the team has to throw out a tired starter instead.

It's a minor thing but it requires managing the rotation at a detail that was probably not intended.

Okay yeah this makes sense. It would be nice for OOTP to see the double header and, like one of us, be able to bench the emergency starter (or an emergency starter) so they can be rested enough for the double header. Or the games after the double header. Something where the games sees more games in an x-game span (x being rotation size) and makes some sort of adjustment to the pen usage

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Okay yeah this makes sense. It would be nice for OOTP to see the double header and, like one of us, be able to bench the emergency starter (or an emergency starter) so they can be rested enough for the double header. Or the games after the double header. Something where the games sees more games in an x-game span (x being rotation size) and makes some sort of adjustment to the pen usage

Basically, if you have an N-man rotation set for the league, then every pitcher needs N-1 days of rest between starts. So 4 days rest for a 5-man rotation.

Typically, I pull my spot starter out of the bullpen 3 days before his start. Not 4 days like a normal starter, because generally pitch counts in relief are a lot lower.

So basically OOTP would need to look ahead 4 days when there is a 5-man rotation and, if there are more than 4 games in that 4-day stretch, OOTP needs to pull the spot starter out of the pen. There's one 6-games-in-4-days stretch that I run into that requires me to juggle two spot starters but that is extremely rare.

Another twist on this is looking ahead allows you to occasionally toss your #5 starter into the pen when there are days off in the schedule. If the #5 starter is rested but won't start within the next 4 days, then you can put him in the bullpen.

This is another thing teams did to keep their #5 starter from having long periods of inactivity

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Another twist on this is looking ahead allows you to occasionally toss your #5 starter into the pen when there are days off in the schedule. If the #5 starter is rested but won't start within the next 4 days, then you can put him in the bullpen.

This is another thing teams did to keep their #5 starter from having long periods of inactivity

Agreed, this would be an excellent edition as well. When I manage games its something I take advantage of that I wish the AI could too. Especially since in real life teams do it a fair amount early in the season when there are extra off days

[uruguru]

So I guess my biggest complaint is that managing spot starters in my rotation requires me to do a lot of extra clicking as I run a season. Not clicking for the spot starters, but just running around to check the waiver wire/free agents on top of the pitching screen (to ensure the correct starter is picked for today) and the schedule (to see if I need to pull the spot starter into the rotation).

That's four screens to click through every day. I checked and the manager's office as a league transactions widget and a schedule widget, which almost fixes the problem.

So here's an idea. What if we had a way to widget to manage our rotation from the manager's office? It would basically be a stripped-down version of that section of the pitching screen.

In case my words are not making sense, here is a mockup of what I am thinking about. I play this game way too much.

[Syd Thrift]

Ideally I'd like for the game to just do this without having to micro like this, no offense. There should be some kind of hierarchy that goes:

- Start the highest rested guy
- If nobody is better than 95%, use an emergency starter
- If there are no emergency starters available, drop the threshold to 85%
- If there's still nobody there, call someone up from the minors (I realize this might have knock-on effects too but it's kind of what happens in the majors when they had these crazy 7 games in 4 days type schedules you occasionally saw)
- From there, if you really don't have anyone available in AAA, which you should have, even if it means you're calling up a guy for one game and then DFAing him, go down to like 75%
- If you really and truly don't have anyone at that point, if the team is human-managed, stop simming and make the player deal with it; if it's not, maybe call a guy up from AA I don't know this feels like a huge, huge edge case at this point

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Ideally I'd like for the game to just do this without having to micro like this, no offense. There should be some kind of hierarchy that goes:

I 100% agree but we also don't want to tread into the territory of "design the AI play the game the way I want to play it"

I had a guy make a really cool mod for my game that made a lot of decisions for the players. A lot of people wanted me to incorporate his mod into the base game but I ultimately chose not to because this was a player-specific (but still common) style and I didn't want to hardwire the base game to do that. And honestly, that mod basically jump-started the mod community for the game so it was win-win for everyone, lol.

If OOTP was moddable in this sense, which is unrealistic to expect, then I would 100% just mod the game to do this for me.

In the end, I would rather have OOTP provide the tools (in this case, a widget) that would be helpful in general without forcing a playstyle on anyone.