Article on Emile Griffith v Benny Paret, the Musical

[Syd Thrift]

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...emile-griffith

This story is one of the great tragedies of sports but also very interesting, and I think musical theater is potentially a great medium to tell it in. The article goes into a lot of depth, too, about many of the things that will be covered in this show (which I guess is technically an opera since they never stop singing), including Griffith’s homosexuality and Paret’s homophobia that arguably was a factor in Griffith not stopping (here, I share Sugar Ray Robinson’s opinion on a fight where he put a guy into a hospital; to paraphrase, this is what boxers are trained to do and if you want them to stop doing it, you need to step in… yeah I put about 90% of this on the referee).

Production wise, it looks like the guy playing Griffith (and the part) is described as “bass-baritone”, which to me implies that he’ll sing in a lower range than you usually hear from leading men in musicals nowadays, which would be nice. Really interested in this…

[CONN CHRIS]

You may actually be too generous in assigning only 90% of the blame to Goldstein. Whatever one thinks of boxing as a sport; the boxer is there to continue until his opponent is down or the referee stops him/her, the referee has the responsibility of protecting the boxers. The ringside physician is the referee's backup eyes on the boxers.

There are times when tragedy is the direct fault of the aggressor (like the Pananma Lewis / Resto debacle) but this wasn't that.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

You may actually be too generous in assigning only 90% of the blame to Goldstein. Whatever one thinks of boxing as a sport; the boxer is there to continue until his opponent is down or the referee stops him/her, the referee has the responsibility of protecting the boxers. The ringside physician is the referee's backup eyes on the boxers.

There are times when tragedy is the direct fault of the aggressor (like the Pananma Lewis / Resto debacle) but this wasn't that.

Yeah, for me the other 10% is on the other corner for not throwing in the towel - granted that this happened so quickly that may have been hard - or the ringside physician. But you might have a point; the few times I’ve watched that fight, it’s crystal clear, even given the “just let them fight” mentality of the era, even given how Paret had a tendency to pretend to be hurt and then viciously come back (which to me only takes the last vestiges of responsibility out of Griffith’s hands), that the ref just stood there and allowed Griffith to kill Paret. I’m not sure I’d recommend anyone watch the fight, as it ends in a man dying, but if you do, think to yourself, “when would I step in to stop it?”. I can almost guarantee that whatever point in time you have, it’s like at least 5-6 seconds before the ref calls off the fight. There is a clear point in time where Paret’s head is just ragdolling with every Griffith punch, where it’s clear that the only reason he’s up is that he got caught on the ropes… and that sequence has to be 10 seconds long (it feels like an hour).

[CONN CHRIS]

I just watched it again because it's been a while. Hard to say that without the benefit of hindsight, it should have been stopped in the seconds before the hang-up on the ropes but he was dead weight and not responding even then. Any referee should have been intervening then for a standing 8 at the very least given he was not responding to the attack. The first blow when he's actually hung on the corner ropes is unquestionably the bright red line and it went well past that.

It's not an armchair knucklehead like me or you that is missing that; it's a trained, experienced professional referee that is right there on top of it with one singular burning mandate.

[CONN CHRIS]

'Standing 8 counts' may not have been in place then - not entirely sure. In any case, I can't truly fault Goldstein for not stepping in just prior to the rope hang up even though it seems in hindsight the right place.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, for me the other 10% is on the other corner for not throwing in the towel - granted that this happened so quickly that may have been hard - or the ringside physician.

That's a good point too, his own corner bears some responsibility as well.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

'Standing 8 counts' may not have been in place then - not entirely sure. In any case, I can't truly fault Goldstein for not stepping in just prior to the rope hang up even though it seems in hindsight the right place.

Standing eight counts were instituted after another famous ring death, Kim Duk-koo.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by pilight

Standing eight counts were instituted after another famous ring death, Kim Duk-koo.

Ah, yes

[Cobra Mgr]

I'd heard about this fight when I was a kid. All I was told at the time was one of them died & it led to boxing being taken off network TV. Never ever actually saw the fight. Didn't know the background story.

So this thread led me to youtube. The ref should have been charged w/manslaughter. I looked him up and saw some quotes he gave immediately after that made me more disgusted with him & his excuses. But I admit I'm more sensitive about it cause I hate fighting as a sport. Prostitution/boxing. I see little difference. Both professions are based on using your body for the exploitation & pleasure of another.

[dsvitak]

I remember Howard Cosell just ... outraged at the beating a boxer took. I think it was Tex Cobb.

If you ever get a chance to read Cosell's autobiography "I Never Played the Game", it's a brilliant read.

Cosell had a Harvard law degree, and was the youngest commissioned Major in the US Army, for the entire second world war.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I remember Howard Cosell just ... outraged at the beating a boxer took. I think it was Tex Cobb.

If you ever get a chance to read Cosell's autobiography "I Never Played the Game", it's a brilliant read.

Cosell had a Harvard law degree, and was the youngest commissioned Major in the US Army, for the entire second world war.

He quit announcing fights after Holmes - Cobb. Tex later told Johnny Carson that he would take another 15-round beating if Cosell would quit announcing football too.

[Syd Thrift]

Cobb was also well known outside of boxing because he played the heavy in a lot of movies and TV shows at the time, although looking at it, it appears that most of his film work happened after the Holmes fight. The thinking at the time was that Cobb had no business getting into the ring against a guy like Holmes. Going into that fight he was 20-2 with both of those losses in his last 5 fights and his biggest career win a TKO over a faded Earnie Shavers (I guess arguably 27-3 Bernardo Mercado, who was 2 fights removed from a TKO loss to Leon Spinks, but I think that says more about how far Shavers had gone downhill). Holmes absolutely destroyed him and, one thing that I think non-fight fans don't get, never managed to knock him out which made the fight even more brutal.

Personally I think on that one Cosell was just being Cosell, which for the uninitiated was something like a 60s/70s version of Stephen A Smith. Unlike Smith he did have some fun moments, particularly with Ali, but to me this was just histrionics. Yeah, Cobb got hammered. No, maybe he shouldn't have gone into the ring with a guy who might be a top 5 ATG at heavyweight. I've seen many, many worse matchups than that one. I mean, if you want to get up in arms about a fight from this period, the Luis Resto - Billy Collins Jr. fight that happened a year later where Resto's manager loaded up his gloves is more than enough. This wasn't a great fight but, like, for all the beating Cobb took, I don't even think he spent serious time in the hospital for it.

Also, the Johnny Carson quote is just the beginning of it... here's a Cobb quote on hearing that the fight drove Cosell out of the sport:

"If I eliminate heart disease, if I walk on water, if I come up with a cure for crippled kids, I can't image a greater gift to mankind. That is my greatest accomplishment."

Imagine being the guy who does something so heinous in the NBA that Stephen A Smith stopped yelling about it weekly...

[pilight]

Holmes-Cobb happened less than two weeks after Mancini-Kim, which had been shown live on CBS. Everybody was a little sensitive to fighters getting hammered like that at the time.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by pilight

Holmes-Cobb happened less than two weeks after Mancini-Kim, which had been shown live on CBS. Everybody was a little sensitive to fighters getting hammered like that at the time.

I didn’t think to look up the Kim fight; that does make more sense (also as to why Cosell chose to make a scene about the Cobb fight, although he really should have made the point about the actual fight where the guy died maybe). There is a point to be made that thanks to the Kim fight, title fights were shortened from 15 rounds to 12 and as such Cobb took an extra 3 rounds of punishment that he wouldn’t have taken had the fight occurred 3 years later.

[Amazin69]

So, does the musical end with Griffith getting gay-bashed to death? Tough way to try and send the audience home singing, I'd think.

Of course, after the butcher job that was Bohemian Rhapsody, I'm pretty skeptical about getting honest treatments of gay celebrities' lives, I'll grant you.

[pilight]

I wouldn't trust Hollywood to give an honest treatment of anybody's life.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by pilight

I wouldn't trust Hollywood to give an honest treatment of anybody's life.

I’m not sure how expansive your view of “Hollywood” is but I doubt the NY Metropolitan Opera is part of it…

[rudel.dietrich]

On a similar note. One of my favorite Bon Dylan songs is about Davey Moore.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I’m not sure how expansive your view of “Hollywood” is but I doubt the NY Metropolitan Opera is part of it…

It's expansive enough to include Bohemian Rhapsody