Relievers Starting?

[Pelican]

This is a new, persistent, phenomenon for me. Late in my 2021 Season sim, with only about ten games left, many of the AI teams are starting relievers with relatively low stamina (i.e. not long or middle relievers, but specialist and setup and stopper guys). And, mysteriously, many of them are pitching quite well, going seven innings or more, despite lacking stamina. What?

I have Openers turned off, so that isn’t it.

These tend to be guys who have never started, at least not in the major leagues. They seem to sit for a couple days in the bullpen, and then presto they are starting.

I have checked, and this does not seem to be an emergency situation for the pitching staffs involved, with no starter from the rotation rested. In other words, the AI is not using this as a “bullpen game”, The starting RP continues until he gets knocked out, often well into the game.

I have rotations set up for each team, along with set roles for all of the relievers. So the AI is basically disregarding the rotation and the assigned roles for RP.

This tendency is common among teams in both leagues, and, annoyingly, for teams fighting for a playoff spot.

Has anyone else seen this? Any thoughts on how to override this, at least with the contenders, who need every win, and who should not be conducting some odd experiment at this point?

Any thoughts on why the majority of these RP are not only pitching well (including some not having stellar seasons in the bullpen), but pitching well into game, as many as 100 pitches thrown?

I find it amusing that I can toggle off the use of SP as RP; but cannot prevent the use of RP as SP (except as “Openers”).

It’s clear to me that the AI managers are aware that it’s September, for they are giving young players on the expanded roster a chance to get game experience, as IRL. Unfortunately, even teams in contention are unaccountably resting stars in favor of rookies in critical games. Not realistic. And starting RP is not a September thing. What these teams could/should/would be doing is starting rookies who were SP in the minors. That does not seem to be happening.

Any way for me to prevent this from disrupting the pennant race? I suppose I could take control and set daily lineups, including SP, for each of the contenders. But I thought I already had that in place. For position players in the lineup, I can toggle daily lineups to lock the lineups and prevent subbing. Not sure how to control the rotation and prevent substitutes.

[brotherblues]

I've seen a ton of AI starters with 20 stamina going consistently deep into games and doing well. They get in the red in their stamina bar in like the 4th inning and often manage to keep dominating until the 8th. It's definitely wonky.

[slugga27]

Is this historical? You say the 2021 season.


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[Syd Thrift]

I stretch players well past their stamina in games in more historical play and this isn’t too out of the ordinary. The biggest issue is I believe that you greatly increase their chance of injury, although if it’s the end of the season and the team isn’t very good, meh. I believe that in the past tired pitchers saw their BABIP blow up but I don’t think that’s really happening anymore. Instead the 3TOs ramp up/down. In a modern league you’ll see fewer (but not zero) strikeouts, which can be a pretty big deal, but it also doesn’t have to be. Walks can go up but if a guy is a control pitcher, a lot might not be much. If you’re then in a pitcher’s park or going up against guys who just plain don’t hit HRs (or have low BABIPs, or strike out enough to counteract the fatigue related lowering of K rates), a reliever may well be able to walk between raindrops for 9 innings.

The times through the order effect is the other thing to watch for but IME relievers with low stamina often have several pitches so that may not necessarily be a thing for you. Also, sometimes rosters can be kind of bad and that can lead to mediocre pitchers (or in this case average but compromised pitchers) looking better than normal as well. IRL there’s a reason why there are more no hitters in September than any other month. Finally, too, good players can get tired, especially if you’re playing as played historical games - in my fictional historical league for example the White Sox and Royals played a 5 game series in 3 days, 2 straight double headers and then a 5th game. You can wind up in situations where even with an expanded roster, players start the game tired and (I think) get more tired as the game wears on.

[Pelican]

Yeah my sim is historical, real players. I could give some examples. They would never happen IRL. I don’t really mind, except for the contenders.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah I don't know... one of the reasons I use fictional players is that I don't feel beholden to "oh that would never happen in real life". Like, fairly early in his career but after he'd established himself as a very good late reliever, the Braves decided to use Steve Bedrosian for an entire season as a starter (37 starts, no CGs in an era where guys still completed games) before giving up on that completely for the rest of his career. Not even September starts, the whole year. I remember Ricky Horton was not at all a long man but the Cardinals kept pulling him out of their bullpen to give him spot starts, and the White Sox even traded for him and tried to make him a full-time starter before giving up - also not even September starts. Dan Quisenberry and Kent Tekulve never made spot starts but Willie Hernandez and Rollie Fingers did.

"They never did IRL" to me isn't the best or at least only sign that an OOTP player would never do a thing in a sim. If you have 5 great starting pitchers, the 6th guy might move to the bullpen and/or be a tweener, even if that 6th guy is a young Nolan Ryan. Conversely, a really great short reliever might get used late in a season as a starter by a manager who is trying to fill a spot for a game or who even wants to give a guy a chance because he's been bugging him about it all season long (Jim Bouton from the Ball Four Pilots comes to mind there; granted that that spot start came in July, not September since Bouton was traded to the Astros by September). Sometimes those situations even come during pennant races. I only bring this up because I'm just keenly aware of it due to playing out a fictionalized version of the season, but in 1970 the White Sox played a *5* game series in 3 days vs the Royals - 2 straight double-headers followed by a travel game where they played one afternooner. Both the White Sox and the Royals were awful that year so nobody cares who they put out there but what if the Sox were actually good then? Pennant chase or not, if you're running a 4 man rotation, all your starters are toasted come Wednesday. Hell, you run a 5 man rotation, that's probably the case. Do you start a long reliever because that's who you're "supposed" to give the start to? Or do you use the guy who gives you the best chance to win, who may well be a short reliever?

[Pelican]

I should pull some examples, but in my season it does not appear that these were the kind of “desperation” starts that can happen, as you say, when doubleheaders pile up or a team flat out runs out of fresh starters. I swear, my examples seem more like the AI is saying, “hey, let’s try this, and see if it works, even though it is totally counter-intuitive and not necessary for the team”.Just gratuitous starts for no good reason.

Tracking the relievers that are starting, I am not finding any pattern of these guys having started in the minors or having that profile. They are not long relievers or spot starters, what you would expect. Some of them are reallly good relievers who will be missed from their bullpens for several days after throwing 100 pitches. I only can hope that nobody gets hurt through this madness. And make sure contenders use healthy rested available starters from the rotation.