How about some bullpen love

BusterKing · 02-15-2015, 06:51 AM

How about more functionality regarding the bullpen. We can't even see who the other team is warming up. For a baseball sim this area is lacking big times and is never being addressed versions after versions.

Will we see an improvement ? For the people that play their games out, that's a very important feature.

jpeters1734 · 02-15-2015, 08:05 AM

that's the main reason why I just set warm up to off

hfield007 · 02-15-2015, 09:50 AM

I think this is another "too hard to code" IIRC addressed quite a bit. Wouldn't hold your breath.

BusterKing · 02-15-2015, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

that's the main reason why I just set warm up to off

I also play that way but it takes the realism factor away.

Old games use to have it, it was fun to see the AI in action.

I just hope Markus will give some attention to it. The number one baseball sim should not be lacking this so important aspect of the game.

Lazy Horse · 02-15-2015, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

I just hope Markus will give some attention to it. The number one baseball sim should not be lacking this so important aspect of the game.

Totally agree. I also hope that the rain delay warm-up "glitch" gets looked at too. I played out my entire season last year and I'm in spring training now and surprisingly, managing my bullpen has actually been one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game for me.

I loath to turn the warm-up rule off. It's a huge part of managing a baseball game.

swoboda · 02-15-2015, 02:03 PM

Even if it is hard to code it needs to stay on the agenda. I leave it on and concede it as a small advantage to the AI.

RchW · 02-15-2015, 04:27 PM

I completely agree with the request and the desire to see who is warming up for the opposition. My question is, did the older games actually get it right? Did the AI anticipate multiple situations accurately before they occurred and have the right pitchers warmed up? Did the AI make mistakes as we know human managers do? If it didn't, then any realism is compromised from that alone. I'm a little skeptical that older games had genuine capability in that area. Since my experience with those games was limited, I'd happily be proved wrong.

For the AI to warm up pitchers it must have the ability to anticipate multiple potential in-game events several (3-6?) outs away. It's easy for human brains and their huge resources to do that, not so easy within the finite resources of coding software and wide commercial suitability. Not making excuses but I remain skeptical that any game of general availability comes close to genuine human abilities of anticipation and strategic preparation/planning.

I think the bottom line is that an AI warmup feature is highly likely to be a human exploit and tough to justify in the big picture.

BusterKing · 02-15-2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I completely agree with the request and the desire to see who is warming up for the opposition. My question is, did the older games actually get it right? Did the AI anticipate multiple situations accurately before they occurred and have the right pitchers warmed up? Did the AI make mistakes as we know human managers do? If it didn't, then any realism is compromised from that alone. I'm a little skeptical that older games had genuine capability in that area. Since my experience with those games was limited, I'd happily be proved wrong.

For the AI to warm up pitchers it must have the ability to anticipate multiple potential in-game events several (3-6?) outs away. It's easy for human brains and their huge resources to do that, not so easy within the finite resources of coding software and wide commercial suitability. Not making excuses but I remain skeptical that any game of general availability comes close to genuine human abilities of anticipation and strategic preparation/planning.

I think the bottom line is that an AI warmup feature is highly likely to be a human exploit and tough to justify in the big picture.

Good points. Could be a wip.

Syd Thrift · 02-15-2015, 05:29 PM

I don't think the AI uses the warmup rule even if you have it enabled. IIRC it's strictly a player thing.

MorseMoose · 02-15-2015, 05:41 PM

Heck, I wouldn't mind if there was just a switch where the AI said, "get a guy warmed up" and then put two guys in for me to see they're warming someone up and then brought in the right player for the circumstance - even if it wasn't one of the guys that was warming up. Just transfer the "tired/ready" over to him based on who was in the bullpen.

I wouldn't mind to fake it to a certain extent to even the playing field a little bit.

LeiterFanatic · 02-15-2015, 06:19 PM

I hear you saying it's too hard for the AI but lots of lesser sims and games have done it. Tony LaRussa 3 did it. MLB The Show and all the other console games do it. Do they do it to the realistic level of OOTP? Maybe not, but I doubt it cannot be done.

RchW · 02-15-2015, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

I hear you saying it's too hard for the AI but lots of lesser sims and games have done it. Tony LaRussa 3 did it. MLB The Show and all the other console games do it. Do they do it to the realistic level of OOTP? Maybe not, but I doubt it cannot be done.

I'm guessing but hope I'm wrong. The point being made is that if it can't be done realistically it is a clear exploit for the human player.

Several issues would spoil it for me.

The AI has two RH RP warming for the 8th. You get 3-4 batters in then use 2XLH pinch hitters.

If the AI uses a less effective but warm RHP I may see this as an exploit. Maybe not but...
If the AI uses a non-warm LHP and he is properly ineffective that too is an exploit. I'm going to win many more games.
If the AI uses a non-warm LHP and he is effective as if he was warm then it is unrealistic and not worth having.

Unless the AI get's handedness and situational situations about 85% right, I'd have problems with it. Heck I have issues where the AI in simulated seasons refuses to use a clearly superior pitcher as a setup guy, but gives some scrub 60 games with a 6.00ERA. Seeing this happen during in game warm up would drive me nuts.

YMMV

Amakiir · 02-16-2015, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

For the AI to warm up pitchers it must have the ability to anticipate multiple potential in-game events several (3-6?) outs away. It's easy for human brains and their huge resources to do that, not so easy within the finite resources of coding software and wide commercial suitability.

I'm no coder or anything, but I did take a few years of AI in college so I at least have a little bit to stand on here. I'm not so sure coding this aspect of the AI would be too terribly hard. Guessing moves in advance I don't think would be a hurdle. You could really simplify things a lot and work in very general case regardless of specifics. For instance, if you have 2 righties a lefty and 2 righties coming up, you could say I will leave in my current pitcher until he gives up a base runner and then go to pitcher 1 if the batter is a lefty and pitcher 2 if batter is a righty. I guess in technical lingo you could aggressively prune the tree (perhaps intentionally over/under pruning certain areas to add a 'human element') and then run a not especially sophisticated logical check to determine action. I've had software checking similar stuff 10k moves in advance (and maybe every pitch is equivalent to a few moves?) and I am some no name dyslexic guy who can't code to save his life. Although this is all highly dependent on how the rest of the software works, so I am assuming there are a lot of other problems. The looking ahead a few moves I highly doubt is the issue.

IanIachimoe · 02-17-2015, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Horse

Totally agree. I also hope that the rain delay warm-up "glitch" gets looked at too. I played out my entire season last year and I'm in spring training now and surprisingly, managing my bullpen has actually been one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game for me.

I loath to turn the warm-up rule off. It's a huge part of managing a baseball game.

same. I refuse to turn it off.

I just start warming up RPs @ the first sign of a sprinkle.

endgame · 02-17-2015, 01:34 PM

I don't use the feature. I want the additions that have been mentioned and petition them almost every year. But here's the thing, and I understand it. Yes, it's a lot of permutations and will likely slow the game down. There are ways to 'fake' it or put an artificial top-coat on the process cosmetically, but it won't happen. If I know one thing with certainty about Markus, it's that he won't do it unless it's done correctly, and models the game as closely as possible, supported by real world data. I am confident that a future version will contain this feature and make it attractive to me. I am equally confident that future is one very distant.

Sweed · 02-17-2015, 03:45 PM

If this could\can be done to an almost human realistic degree then please do add it in. Until then I could care less if the AI has to warmup anyone. The AI is at enough of a disadvantage that this "little" advantage it gets is fine by me.

I don't begrudge anyone asking for and wanting this and I do hope it gets in done "right". If it does make it please also add toggles so it can be turned off or on for both human or AI independently so I can leave human on and turn off AI if I so desire.

02-15-2015, 06:51 AM	#1
BusterKing Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,422	How about some bullpen love How about more functionality regarding the bullpen. We can't even see who the other team is warming up. For a baseball sim this area is lacking big times and is never being addressed versions after versions. Will we see an improvement ? For the people that play their games out, that's a very important feature.

02-15-2015, 08:05 AM	#2
jpeters1734 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Juust a bit outside... Posts: 6,218	that's the main reason why I just set warm up to off __________________ "Cannonball Coming!" Go Bucs!! Founder and League Caretaker of the Professional Baseball Circuit, www.probaseballcircuit.com An Un-Official Guide to Minor League Management in OOTP 21 Ratings Scale Conversion Cross-Reference Cheat Sheet

02-15-2015, 02:03 PM	#6
swoboda All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guarding The Line Posts: 1,220	Even if it is hard to code it needs to stay on the agenda. I leave it on and concede it as a small advantage to the AI. __________________ "...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer" The late great Lindsey Nelson

02-15-2015, 04:27 PM	#7
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I completely agree with the request and the desire to see who is warming up for the opposition. My question is, did the older games actually get it right? Did the AI anticipate multiple situations accurately before they occurred and have the right pitchers warmed up? Did the AI make mistakes as we know human managers do? If it didn't, then any realism is compromised from that alone. I'm a little skeptical that older games had genuine capability in that area. Since my experience with those games was limited, I'd happily be proved wrong. For the AI to warm up pitchers it must have the ability to anticipate multiple potential in-game events several (3-6?) outs away. It's easy for human brains and their huge resources to do that, not so easy within the finite resources of coding software and wide commercial suitability. Not making excuses but I remain skeptical that any game of general availability comes close to genuine human abilities of anticipation and strategic preparation/planning. I think the bottom line is that an AI warmup feature is highly likely to be a human exploit and tough to justify in the big picture. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

02-17-2015, 01:34 PM	#15
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	I don't use the feature. I want the additions that have been mentioned and petition them almost every year. But here's the thing, and I understand it. Yes, it's a lot of permutations and will likely slow the game down. There are ways to 'fake' it or put an artificial top-coat on the process cosmetically, but it won't happen. If I know one thing with certainty about Markus, it's that he won't do it unless it's done correctly, and models the game as closely as possible, supported by real world data. I am confident that a future version will contain this feature and make it attractive to me. I am equally confident that future is one very distant. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

02-15-2015, 09:50 AM	#3
hfield007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,713	I think this is another "too hard to code" IIRC addressed quite a bit. Wouldn't hold your breath.

02-15-2015, 05:41 PM	#10
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	Heck, I wouldn't mind if there was just a switch where the AI said, "get a guy warmed up" and then put two guys in for me to see they're warming someone up and then brought in the right player for the circumstance - even if it wasn't one of the guys that was warming up. Just transfer the "tired/ready" over to him based on who was in the bullpen. I wouldn't mind to fake it to a certain extent to even the playing field a little bit.

02-15-2015, 06:19 PM	#11
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,348	I hear you saying it's too hard for the AI but lots of lesser sims and games have done it. Tony LaRussa 3 did it. MLB The Show and all the other console games do it. Do they do it to the realistic level of OOTP? Maybe not, but I doubt it cannot be done.

02-17-2015, 03:45 PM	#16
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,697	If this could\can be done to an almost human realistic degree then please do add it in. Until then I could care less if the AI has to warmup anyone. The AI is at enough of a disadvantage that this "little" advantage it gets is fine by me. I don't begrudge anyone asking for and wanting this and I do hope it gets in done "right". If it does make it please also add toggles so it can be turned off or on for both human or AI independently so I can leave human on and turn off AI if I so desire.