Great Player Effect2

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 12:20 PM

It would be really cool if as a GM and you sign a big name (stat) player to your team, your attendance would go up as the fans would come out to see him play.

P.S. I posted this in the suggestion forum, but hell, theres no one there and I wanted to see if any of you would agree that this would be a nice feature.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMember

It would be really cool if as a GM and you sign a big name (stat) player to your team, your attendance would go up as the fans would come out to see him play.

P.S. I posted this in the suggestion forum, but hell, theres no one there and I wanted to see if any of you would agree that this would be a nice feature.

I did not like that feature at all in the old OOTP...

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I did not like that feature at all in the old OOTP...

Can I ask you why you would not like this feature? It would add realism.

OmahaBaseball · 07-05-2006, 12:27 PM

I would agree - that in "real life" when a team signs a "big-time" player - there does seem to be an increase "buzz" about the team and maybe more ticket sales, etc... I would love to see things like this in OOTPB

sean-patin · 07-05-2006, 12:40 PM

....such as Clemens' return to the Astros!

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMember

Can I ask you why you would not like this feature? It would add realism.

Unfortunately, I believe it took away realism:

1) The amount of change for signing/releasing a player was WAY too much

2) If you're going to do this, then the Visiting team's players must also draw in fans. Very rarely, a player will come along that EVERYONE wants to go see (Babe Ruth, Mark Fidrych, Fernando Valenzuela, etc.) whether on the road or at home...For instance: I live in Lexington, KY, home to the Houston Astros Sally league affiliate. Roger Clemens pitched his first rehab start here and sold out the stadium. If this game had happened on the road for the Legends, wherever it was would have sold out.

3) When doing expansion drafts, I would release players and redraft them, thus causing all the fans too become angry....

4) 99.9% of a teams attendance fluctuations can be attributed to winning and losing....The spike in attendance for everyone wanting to see the new player wears off very quickly and virtually NO ONE quits going to games because Joe Schmoe was traded...

5) I think we need a model for finances in a baseball sim. But for that model to be realistic, it does not have to be all-inclusive...

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 12:45 PM

Well, I started a league in 1976 and am in 1981 now and I looked at the FAs out there and saw guys like Rod Carew, Johnny Bench, Dave Kingman and Pete Rose just sitting there. Even after the season started, they just sat there. In real life, a guy like Pete Rose, who is second to Hank Aaron in career hits in my league would be grabbed up by any team to boost ticket sales.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMember

Well, I started a league in 1976 and am in 1981 now and I looked at the FAs out there and saw guys like Rod Carew, Johnny Bench, Dave Kingman and Pete Rose just sitting there. Even after the season started, they just sat there. In real life, a guy like Pete Rose, who is second to Hank Aaron in career hits in my league would be grabbed up by any team to boost ticket sales.

If that theory were true, the greats would NEVER be allowed to retire...

Syd Thrift · 07-05-2006, 12:53 PM

IMO winning and losing isn't nearly as big a factor in real-life attendance as is the factor of fans thinking they're getting screwed with or not. Thus, you may not necessarily see a big rise in attendance if you sign a popular player, but you sure will see one if you trade a guy with a lot of local popularity for a bunch of unknowns, even if the unknowns are better, because the fans will think that you're taking them for granted.

Some of this can probably be mitigated by offering a popular player an extension and having him turn it down. After all, it at least looks like you're trying to keep the team together. But if you just blow up your team and start over, you should expect to see attendance drop to nil even before it becomes obvious how bad you are.

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Unfortunately, I believe it took away realism:

1) The amount of change for signing/releasing a player was WAY too much

2) If you're going to do this, then the Visiting team's players must also draw in fans. Very rarely, a player will come along that EVERYONE wants to go see (Babe Ruth, Mark Fidrych, Fernando Valenzuela, etc.) whether on the road or at home...For instance: I live in Lexington, KY, home to the Houston Astros Sally league affiliate. Roger Clemens pitched his first rehab start here and sold out the stadium. If this game had happened on the road for the Legends, wherever it was would have sold out.

3) When doing expansion drafts, I would release players and redraft them, thus causing all the fans too become angry....

4) 99.9% of a teams attendance fluctuations can be attributed to winning and losing....The spike in attendance for everyone wanting to see the new player wears off very quickly and virtually NO ONE quits going to games because Joe Schmoe was traded...

5) I think we need a model for finances in a baseball sim. But for that model to be realistic, it does not have to be all-inclusive...

I think your wrong here. I'm a big Royals fan, and if the Royals would have ever traded George Brett, I think that straw would have broken the cities back and the Royals would have probally endd up leaving KC and the remaining fans would care less.

Even today, if the Royals would just sign a few big name players, attendance would rise quite a bit, but we haven't had any big name players here since Brett and Bo Jackson. While we had those players, we had fans, now we have no one, and so do the seats. I think player and fans go hand and hand and big name players is the number one reason fans come to the park.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMember

I think your wrong here. I'm a big Royals fan, and if the Royals would have ever traded George Brett, I think that straw would have broken the cities back and the Royals would have probally endd up leaving KC and the remaining fans would care less.

Even today, if the Royals would just sign a few big name players, attendance would rise quite a bit, but we haven't had any big name players here since Brett and Bo Jackson. While we had those players, we had fans, now we have no one, and so do the seats. I think player and fans go hand and hand and big name players is the number one reason fans come to the park.

I lived in Cincinnati through the late 60's and 70's, where we were ALWAYS giving away popular players. Frank Robinson and Tony Perez for nuthin' and Pete Rose left via free agency, Lee May and especially, Tommy Helms were very popular players when they were traded. People were PO'd, but as long as they kept winning, they kept selling tickets....

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

If that theory were true, the greats would NEVER be allowed to retire...

The act of retiring is up to a player, not the fans. If a guy sat unsigned and was a future hall of famer and had almost nothing else in terms of skills, he would still be grabbed up fast if he could sell 1,000s of tickets.

Syd Thrift · 07-05-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

If that theory were true, the greats would NEVER be allowed to retire...

How often are really great players "allowed" to retire? Pete Rose played into his mid-40s. Nolan Ryan did too and only retired because he suffered what was basically a CEI. Wade Boggs hung on into mediocrity. Rickey Henderson, Dave Winfield, and Jack Morris hung on past that point. Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy kept playing long after their respective stars were tarnished. George Brett and Robin Yount were shadows of their former selves in '93. Carlton Fisk, for that matter, was released after a horrendous start to his season that included IIRC throwing out just 2 of 21 base-stealers.

I think that a lot of great players are allowed to play until it's obvious to everybody that they're barely replacement level. A lot of that is something akin to the popularity scores that were included in 6.5.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 12:59 PM

How many poeple quit going to games because Amos Otis left KC? He was very popular...

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I lived in Cincinnati through the late 60's and 70's, where we were ALWAYS giving away popular players. Frank Robinson and Tony Perez for nuthin' and Pete Rose left via free agency, Lee May and especially, Tommy Helms were very popular players when they were traded. People were PO'd, but as long as they kept winning, they kept selling tickets....

You may have noticed, that when all those players left the Reds, they started losing.

Syd Thrift · 07-05-2006, 01:04 PM

On the other hand, the Mariners nixed a trade involving Jamie Moyer last year because of the popularity factor. Moyer was dead set against leaving but was loyal to the team, even to the point of saying that he'd waive his 5 and 10 exception if he knew the team would re-sign him that offseason. Of course the Mariners couldn't agree to do that, and the fan backlash became a bit much.

I'd like to see different cities have differently acting fan bases. Maybe this could change over time. Cubs fans, for example, appear to forgive their team for just about anything. Marlins fans might just want stability and an owner that doesn't threaten to leave every other year. Yankees fans are 100% about winning.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

How often are really great players "allowed" to retire? Pete Rose played into his mid-40s. Nolan Ryan did too and only retired because he suffered what was basically a CEI. Wade Boggs hung on into mediocrity. Rickey Henderson, Dave Winfield, and Jack Morris hung on past that point. Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy kept playing long after their respective stars were tarnished. George Brett and Robin Yount were shadows of their former selves in '93. Carlton Fisk, for that matter, was released after a horrendous start to his season that included IIRC throwing out just 2 of 21 base-stealers.

I think that a lot of great players are allowed to play until it's obvious to everybody that they're barely replacement level. A lot of that is something akin to the popularity scores that were included in 6.5.

I'm not saying these players have NO affect on attendance. I'm saying OOTP6.5 overstated it by a large margin and if you base attendance solely on winning/losing, then your model will be correct most of the time...

BigMember · 07-05-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

How many poeple quit going to games because Amos Otis left KC? He was very popular...

Amos Otis? He was not that popular here in Kansas City. He had run ins with fans and players both. Plus when we got rid of him, we still had players like Brett, Leonard, Wilson and Big Mac. Otis was not missed in KC. He was so jealous of Willie Wilson he caused problems here.

Questdog · 07-05-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMember

You may have noticed, that when all those players left the Reds, they started losing.

That is NOT true. Frank left just before the dawning of the Big Red Machine, Perez and Rose left and the Reds continued to win until 1982.
Lee May and Tommy Helms leaving made the team MUCH better, due to what was recevied in the trade (Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo, and Jack Billingham)

BIG Irish · 07-05-2006, 01:10 PM

When you have numerous stars and/or your team is winning you'll keep butts in the seats, but when you're not a winner the fans rely on hope. I'm a Pirates fan, we suck. I hope Jason Bay continues toward stardom. If they traded him I would loose hope & be less likely to go to a game.

Your talking about hope. If a team signs Albert Pujols, people don't come out just to see Albert Pujols, they want to see their team win, which is much more likely with a marguee player such as Pujols.

The excitment isn't just that a great player is at the ballpark, it's that the player will help the team win.

07-05-2006, 12:20 PM	#1
BigMember Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Independence MO Posts: 168	Great Player Effect2 It would be really cool if as a GM and you sign a big name (stat) player to your team, your attendance would go up as the fans would come out to see him play. P.S. I posted this in the suggestion forum, but hell, theres no one there and I wanted to see if any of you would agree that this would be a nice feature. __________________ "Is that my shoe over there? No, that one! Give it to me!"

07-05-2006, 12:27 PM	#4
OmahaBaseball Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Home of the College World Series! Posts: 3,568	I would agree - that in "real life" when a team signs a "big-time" player - there does seem to be an increase "buzz" about the team and maybe more ticket sales, etc... I would love to see things like this in OOTPB __________________ Life is Good!

07-05-2006, 12:45 PM	#7
BigMember Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Independence MO Posts: 168	Well, I started a league in 1976 and am in 1981 now and I looked at the FAs out there and saw guys like Rod Carew, Johnny Bench, Dave Kingman and Pete Rose just sitting there. Even after the season started, they just sat there. In real life, a guy like Pete Rose, who is second to Hank Aaron in career hits in my league would be grabbed up by any team to boost ticket sales. __________________ "Is that my shoe over there? No, that one! Give it to me!"

07-05-2006, 12:40 PM	#5
sean-patin Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 205	....such as Clemens' return to the Astros!

07-05-2006, 12:59 PM	#14
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	How many poeple quit going to games because Amos Otis left KC? He was very popular...

07-05-2006, 01:10 PM	#20
BIG Irish Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 163	When you have numerous stars and/or your team is winning you'll keep butts in the seats, but when you're not a winner the fans rely on hope. I'm a Pirates fan, we suck. I hope Jason Bay continues toward stardom. If they traded him I would loose hope & be less likely to go to a game. Your talking about hope. If a team signs Albert Pujols, people don't come out just to see Albert Pujols, they want to see their team win, which is much more likely with a marguee player such as Pujols. The excitment isn't just that a great player is at the ballpark, it's that the player will help the team win.