Tyrus Raymond...

Jordan · 09-29-2003, 08:49 PM

....anyone know Ty Cobb's number? I've looked at many reference sites and books, but couldn't find it. Can anyone help me out?

Boozie1580 · 09-29-2003, 09:22 PM

6? not sure about that

markprior22 · 09-29-2003, 09:27 PM

I don't believe he ever wore a number. See the following site as an example:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/ho...ni_numbers.htm

Nukester · 09-29-2003, 10:15 PM

I don't believe he wore a number either. According to baseball-almanac.com, numbers weren't worn on a regular basis until 1929 (Cobb retired from the Philadelphia Athletics after the 1928 season), and even then the numbers used were primarily that players spot in the lineup. This was the practice until numbers started being retired, and random numbers had to be used.

Also, as stated above, he is in the Hall of Fame without a number (as are most of the deadball players)

kq76 · 09-29-2003, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nukester
... and even then the numbers used were primarily that players spot in the lineup...

I wonder if some old woman had to restitch the numbers when a coach made a last minute lineup change.

It'd be pretty funny to see players with their lineup number on their uniforms now.

AngelinOF · 09-29-2003, 11:54 PM

The Cleveland Indians were the first team to regularly wear numbers on their back in 1929, (the Yankees are often credited with this innovation and were scheduled to open the 1929 season with numbers along with Cleveland but their first game was rained out so Cleveland was the only team to have numbers on opening day 1929.) Ironically Ty Cobb's last team was also the last team to adopt this policy in 1937.

dsvitak · 09-30-2003, 02:42 AM

If you want to give him a number, make it 666.

SandMan · 09-30-2003, 12:14 PM

Cobb never had a number.

COBB 666!!!! YES!!!
If he played today he would not be in the HOF - along with Speaker..... As managers, Cobb and Speaker threw games (did not matter they were not in the pennant race) to keep another team out of the Series..... Kept under the table but both players were "forced" to retire and not allowed to manage again.....after 1928.

So do we allow Pete Rose and Joe Jackson to enter the HOF or do we take Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker out????? Kinda off the subject of the original post but I just want to vent - loved COBB as a player, but as a moral human being he had ISSUES.... Speaker by all accounts was a gentleman, but probably thought that since he was out of the race it did not matter to throw a game or not....It was called laying down back then and prior to 1920 many teams did this...

Big Train · 09-30-2003, 12:36 PM

My understanding is that it was "rumored" but never actually proven that Cobb and Speaker threw games. As far as the other issue, yes Cobb was a really rotten person but I'm sure there are some other rotten people in the Hall. There is absolutely no way you could justify keeping Cobb out with his numbers unless it was absolutely proven that he threw games.

Rose should be in the Hall of Fame and probably will be soon from what I hear. I'm not sure if Jackson ever should be. A lot of people seem to talk about what Rose and Jackson did as somehow being similar. This is really inaccurate and totally unfair to Rose. Not only is the case against Rose very weak but even if he did bet on baseball games he *never* bet against his team or threw games, he's never even been accused of that.

Carlton · 09-30-2003, 01:40 PM

No it was proven

3 ballplayers testified to the fact but Landis knew after the Black Sox scandal that if he banished two of the greatest players of Baseball, it might not survive. He kept it lowkey since it was not a big game...and forced them out of baseball

fat dude · 09-30-2003, 02:02 PM

Rose never bet against his team? Ummm, that's exactly the worst part of the disaster (I thought). As a manager he is accused of betting against his own team. No?

D Love · 09-30-2003, 02:19 PM

Actually, Cobb's throwing games was never proven. That's why he wasn't tossed out of baseball.

But perhaps he did. Hornsby allegedly also gambled and was effectively blacklisted from baseball. You'll note that he only returned to organized baseball within a year of Landis being gone and remained so until his death. Maybe Landis didn't want to ban people anymore after the initial bunch?

Big Train · 09-30-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fat dude
Rose never bet against his team? Ummm, that's exactly the worst part of the disaster (I thought). As a manager he is accused of betting against his own team. No?

No, none of the alleged bets he made was against the Reds. He was only accused of betting on ballgames, which is against the rules. He was never accused of betting on his own team, throwing games or trying to influence their outcome in any way.

And there is still quite a bit of doubt that he is even guilty of what he was accused of. I watched a good show about the whole thing on "Beyond the Glory" a while ago. I also heard not long ago that Baseball plans to lift the ban and let him in to the Hall sometime next year. I hope this is true, he belongs in the Hall.

dsvitak · 09-30-2003, 08:46 PM

I have read the Dowd report, in its entirety, twice.

Anyone who believes in Rose's innocence will have their opinion changed, as I did, after reading the report.

Guilty, guilty, guilty.

The Dowd report, as issued, was 300 pages. They left out the other 700 pages.

SandMan · 09-30-2003, 08:54 PM

Cobb was forced out of the game.....If Joe Jackson actually threw the game he hid it well - he hit .385 in the series and played a flawless defense. I think he was just a simpleton who agreed to take the money but then couldn't go through with it and actually played well......

Rose was guilty - but the hall of fame should not ban him for being an ass as a manager - it should allow him in on what he did on the field - no doubt in my mind........

Prior to 1920 it was common to "lay down" and there have been records of this since the late 1870's....it was only after it was brought to a World Series and influenced by gambling that baseball decided to act......

Big Train · 10-01-2003, 03:49 AM

For the sake of argument I'll concede Rose is guilty, I still see a big difference between what he did and what the Black Sox did. While it makes a lot of sense to ban any connection between baseball and gambling, someone betting on a game which they can't influence really doesn't effect anything. He broke the rules and he has suffered for it but I don't see what he did as some great crime against the game.

Throwing a World Series is obviously totally different. There is no question that that drives away fans and taints the game and is just plain *wrong*. Now I have some sympathy for the Black Sox mainly because the whole thing probably never would've happened if Comiskey hadn't been such an a**hole about ripping off his players. But that still doesn't excuse what they did and Jackson wasn't as dumb as he's often portayed. He was successfull in business after his baseball carreer. He and the others no doubt regretted what they did after the fact but they were fully aware of what they were doing. Also,even if they did play well in some games the effect on the fans was still the same. I suppose eventually Shoeless Joe deserves to be in the Hall of Fame but Rose deserves it a lot more.

As far as Cobb, I think his "punishment" for having such a poor character was the fact that he never won a World series and he was almost universally despised by team mates as well as opponents. The Hall of Fame is really about ability and stats and there is no question Cobb had great ability and great stats.

A bit of OOTP content....it would be cool to see a "tears the team apart" setting in the character settings for people like Cobb who actually drag their team down because of their personality, I guess it would be the exact opposite of whatever "great leader" does.

Carlton · 10-01-2003, 10:41 PM

Cobb was bad as a player but he DID have friends in Baseball and as he got older, he become more "human" if that's a description, I have read many snippets and articles where they said Cobb was good friends with a good character in Baseball, can't remember his name but Cobb would go on hunting trips with him, I wanna say Mathewson but don't hold me to it. He also did Puerto Rican leagues and Cuban leagues with Babe Ruth, despite his slanderous remarks against him, I've read they appeared together after their careers ended.

Anyway that's irrelevant, it is pretty obvious that Cobb DID throw games, since after his "meeting" he called it a career.

09-29-2003, 08:49 PM	#1
Jordan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chi Suburbs now... Posts: 2,063	Tyrus Raymond... ....anyone know Ty Cobb's number? I've looked at many reference sites and books, but couldn't find it. Can anyone help me out?

09-30-2003, 01:40 PM	#10
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	No it was proven 3 ballplayers testified to the fact but Landis knew after the Black Sox scandal that if he banished two of the greatest players of Baseball, it might not survive. He kept it lowkey since it was not a big game...and forced them out of baseball __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

10-01-2003, 10:41 PM	#17
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	Cobb was bad as a player but he DID have friends in Baseball and as he got older, he become more "human" if that's a description, I have read many snippets and articles where they said Cobb was good friends with a good character in Baseball, can't remember his name but Cobb would go on hunting trips with him, I wanna say Mathewson but don't hold me to it. He also did Puerto Rican leagues and Cuban leagues with Babe Ruth, despite his slanderous remarks against him, I've read they appeared together after their careers ended. Anyway that's irrelevant, it is pretty obvious that Cobb DID throw games, since after his "meeting" he called it a career. __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

09-29-2003, 09:22 PM	#2
Boozie1580 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 1,255	6? not sure about that

09-29-2003, 09:27 PM	#3
markprior22 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, illinois Posts: 1,247	I don't believe he ever wore a number. See the following site as an example: http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/ho...ni_numbers.htm

09-29-2003, 10:15 PM	#4
Nukester All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 1,923	I don't believe he wore a number either. According to baseball-almanac.com, numbers weren't worn on a regular basis until 1929 (Cobb retired from the Philadelphia Athletics after the 1928 season), and even then the numbers used were primarily that players spot in the lineup. This was the practice until numbers started being retired, and random numbers had to be used. Also, as stated above, he is in the Hall of Fame without a number (as are most of the deadball players)

09-29-2003, 11:54 PM	#6
AngelinOF All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,353	The Cleveland Indians were the first team to regularly wear numbers on their back in 1929, (the Yankees are often credited with this innovation and were scheduled to open the 1929 season with numbers along with Cleveland but their first game was rained out so Cleveland was the only team to have numbers on opening day 1929.) Ironically Ty Cobb's last team was also the last team to adopt this policy in 1937.

09-30-2003, 02:42 AM	#7
dsvitak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,451	If you want to give him a number, make it 666.

09-30-2003, 12:14 PM	#8
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	Cobb never had a number. COBB 666!!!! YES!!! If he played today he would not be in the HOF - along with Speaker..... As managers, Cobb and Speaker threw games (did not matter they were not in the pennant race) to keep another team out of the Series..... Kept under the table but both players were "forced" to retire and not allowed to manage again.....after 1928. So do we allow Pete Rose and Joe Jackson to enter the HOF or do we take Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker out????? Kinda off the subject of the original post but I just want to vent - loved COBB as a player, but as a moral human being he had ISSUES.... Speaker by all accounts was a gentleman, but probably thought that since he was out of the race it did not matter to throw a game or not....It was called laying down back then and prior to 1920 many teams did this...

09-30-2003, 12:36 PM	#9
Big Train Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 402	My understanding is that it was "rumored" but never actually proven that Cobb and Speaker threw games. As far as the other issue, yes Cobb was a really rotten person but I'm sure there are some other rotten people in the Hall. There is absolutely no way you could justify keeping Cobb out with his numbers unless it was absolutely proven that he threw games. Rose should be in the Hall of Fame and probably will be soon from what I hear. I'm not sure if Jackson ever should be. A lot of people seem to talk about what Rose and Jackson did as somehow being similar. This is really inaccurate and totally unfair to Rose. Not only is the case against Rose very weak but even if he did bet on baseball games he never bet against his team or threw games, he's never even been accused of that.

09-30-2003, 02:02 PM	#11
fat dude Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 392	Rose never bet against his team? Ummm, that's exactly the worst part of the disaster (I thought). As a manager he is accused of betting against his own team. No?

09-30-2003, 02:19 PM	#12
D Love All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 904	Actually, Cobb's throwing games was never proven. That's why he wasn't tossed out of baseball. But perhaps he did. Hornsby allegedly also gambled and was effectively blacklisted from baseball. You'll note that he only returned to organized baseball within a year of Landis being gone and remained so until his death. Maybe Landis didn't want to ban people anymore after the initial bunch?

09-30-2003, 08:46 PM	#14
dsvitak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,451	I have read the Dowd report, in its entirety, twice. Anyone who believes in Rose's innocence will have their opinion changed, as I did, after reading the report. Guilty, guilty, guilty. The Dowd report, as issued, was 300 pages. They left out the other 700 pages.

09-30-2003, 08:54 PM	#15
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	Cobb was forced out of the game.....If Joe Jackson actually threw the game he hid it well - he hit .385 in the series and played a flawless defense. I think he was just a simpleton who agreed to take the money but then couldn't go through with it and actually played well...... Rose was guilty - but the hall of fame should not ban him for being an ass as a manager - it should allow him in on what he did on the field - no doubt in my mind........ Prior to 1920 it was common to "lay down" and there have been records of this since the late 1870's....it was only after it was brought to a World Series and influenced by gambling that baseball decided to act......

10-01-2003, 03:49 AM	#16
Big Train Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 402	For the sake of argument I'll concede Rose is guilty, I still see a big difference between what he did and what the Black Sox did. While it makes a lot of sense to ban any connection between baseball and gambling, someone betting on a game which they can't influence really doesn't effect anything. He broke the rules and he has suffered for it but I don't see what he did as some great crime against the game. Throwing a World Series is obviously totally different. There is no question that that drives away fans and taints the game and is just plain wrong. Now I have some sympathy for the Black Sox mainly because the whole thing probably never would've happened if Comiskey hadn't been such an a**hole about ripping off his players. But that still doesn't excuse what they did and Jackson wasn't as dumb as he's often portayed. He was successfull in business after his baseball carreer. He and the others no doubt regretted what they did after the fact but they were fully aware of what they were doing. Also,even if they did play well in some games the effect on the fans was still the same. I suppose eventually Shoeless Joe deserves to be in the Hall of Fame but Rose deserves it a lot more. As far as Cobb, I think his "punishment" for having such a poor character was the fact that he never won a World series and he was almost universally despised by team mates as well as opponents. The Hall of Fame is really about ability and stats and there is no question Cobb had great ability and great stats. A bit of OOTP content....it would be cool to see a "tears the team apart" setting in the character settings for people like Cobb who actually drag their team down because of their personality, I guess it would be the exact opposite of whatever "great leader" does.