Training Facility is broken

[majesty95]

You gotta love sinking a20-30 hours into a game and have it ruined by a buggy, poorly implemented feature.

I traded for both of these guys last season as I was hoping the dev lab would help their control. Good news! Both had great/excellent results!

But wait...

Neither of their control ratings went up and they are BOTH considerably worse with control this season.

I had it work a couple times with minor gains for guys although it didnt seem to make much of an impact despite the ratings jump. Now this season it seems broken and ruined my pitchers.

My catcher is a 60/65 with 60 blocking, 80 framing and 55 arm in case it matters.

[majesty95]

Wow. I titled this Training Facility is broken [snipped] and they edited my title lol. Geezus we're so weak there days

[kq76]

We have forum rules against swearing. If you don't want to follow them, maybe ask for help somewhere swearing is welcome.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

You gotta love sinking a20-30 hours into a game and have it ruined by a buggy, poorly implemented feature.

I traded for both of these guys last season as I was hoping the dev lab would help their control. Good news! Both had great/excellent results!

But wait...

Neither of their control ratings went up and they are BOTH considerably worse with control this season.

I had it work a couple times with minor gains for guys although it didnt seem to make much of an impact despite the ratings jump. Now this season it seems broken and ruined my pitchers.

My catcher is a 60/65 with 60 blocking, 80 framing and 55 arm in case it matters.

Well considering the Dev Lab does not have Great nor excellent results, I have to call rubbish. If you want to prove something seems wrong then post the development emails. But when a player is maxed out in a rating like Movement (HRA), Control, BABIP, Power, Eye Avoid K, Gap... you need an Outstanding result for potential to also increase.

You only have 4 results in the Dev Lab, Poor, No Improvement, Successful, and Outstanding. Just because it does not give you the outcome you want does not make something broken.

[Sweed]

I'm in off-season and have a C that will be coming up from AAA for next season. He is average with 5 frame, 5 block, 5 arm but his C ability is only 4/4.
I sent him to development to work on his D and it came back as successful with each category seeing an increase. Here is the email..

Hello ,

M. Gonzalez has completed his training in the development complex, and as you are aware, he has been working hard with staff to improve his defense at catcher.
I have also finished compiling my report on his progress and here is what I see from him going into the season.

Matt Gonzalez really applied himself to the training program. He seemed eager to learn and the staff I spoke with enjoyed working with him. He worked on keeping the ball in front, strengthening his arm, and more. Overall he seemed to have made good progress in all of his defensive abilities at his position.

You can view my full scouting report on their player scouting page, although this report will also include other changes since the last time I scouted them, if there were any.

While it's difficult to measure the exact changes specifically due to his time at the facility, here is my best estimate:

Catcher arm rating improves by <1
Catcher ability rating improves by <1
Catcher framing rating improves by <1

Antonio Moral

Improvement was slight at less than one per category, but his "C ability" did increase from 4/4 to 5/5. Seems to be working for me.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by majesty95

You gotta love sinking a20-30 hours into a game and have it ruined by a buggy, poorly implemented feature.

I traded for both of these guys last season as I was hoping the dev lab would help their control. Good news! Both had great/excellent results!

But wait...

Neither of their control ratings went up and they are BOTH considerably worse with control this season. .

Do you have recalc turned on?

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Well considering the Dev Lab does not have Great nor excellent results, I have to call rubbish. If you want to prove something seems wrong then post the development emails. But when a player is maxed out in a rating like Movement (HRA), Control, BABIP, Power, Eye Avoid K, Gap... you need an Outstanding result for potential to also increase.

You only have 4 results in the Dev Lab, Poor, No Improvement, Successful, and Outstanding. Just because it does not give you the outcome you want does not make something broken.

I don’t remember what exactly it said but two were the highest grade and the other was the second highest. You don’t have to believe me. I know what I saw and posted the results after.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I'm in off-season and have a C that will be coming up from AAA for next season. He is average with 5 frame, 5 block, 5 arm but his C ability is only 4/4.
I sent him to development to work on his D and it came back as successful with each category seeing an increase. Here is the email..



Improvement was slight at less than one per category, but his "C ability" did increase from 4/4 to 5/5. Seems to be working for me.

As I stated, it has worked. But in this particular instance, it seems to have actually damaged the ratings after a positive result in the lab. Which is an issue.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Do you have recalc turned on?

I don’t. It’s just the dev engine.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I don’t remember what exactly it said but two were the highest grade and the other was the second highest. You don’t have to believe me. I know what I saw and posted the results after.

It's just successful and Outstanding and like I stated a successful outcome will do nothing to the potential control rating. It wont make control better or worse. It is absolutely impossible. I have done enough testing on the dev system the past 4 months to tell you, whatever you are seeing is NOT a result of the dev lab. The Dev Lab will not make your control worse because you got a successful result and you would have only seen a 5 point boost with an outstanding result.

I find it strange you expect us to tell by the screenshots above that there is an issue. I mean you are showing Nolan Ryan and expecting me to know how your league is setup.

So, when you made your league, which option did you use? Default? Replay? Career? Do you have recalc on along with development engine?

You have given us no info on how to help you or prove to you that what you are seeing is not the result of the Dev Lab. The only time, and it does not happen all of the time, you will see a negative outcome is on a poor result and that didnt happen to you. But, if you have recalc on, oh that's gonna wipe out everything you have done in the season.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by twins_34

It's just successful and Outstanding and like I stated a successful outcome will do nothing to the potential control rating. It wont make control better or worse. It is absolutely impossible. I have done enough testing on the dev system the past 4 months to tell you, whatever you are seeing is NOT a result of the dev lab. The Dev Lab will not make your control worse because you got a successful result and you would have only seen a 5 point boost with an outstanding result.

I find it strange you expect us to tell by the screenshots above that there is an issue. I mean you are showing Nolan Ryan and expecting me to know how your league is setup.

So, when you made your league, which option did you use? Default? Replay? Career? Do you have recalc on along with development engine?

You have given us no info on how to help you or prove to you that what you are seeing is not the result of the Dev Lab. The only time, and it does not happen all of the time, you will see a negative outcome is on a poor result and that didnt happen to you. But, if you have recalc on, oh that's gonna wipe out everything you have done in the season.

I answered someone else that asked that before. And I’ve been playing this game for 20 years so I’m well aware of things that could create that result.

All I have on is the dev engine. No recalc. So I got two outstanding and one successful. None of the three had any jump in control or potential control on the 20-80 scale and all three regressed in control statistically following the successful conclusions. That does not at all seem to be working as described and seems to have the unintended consequence of significantly worsening my players which I didn’t realize was an option. I also was happy that I got the successful results so saw no need to screenshot them in the moment. I’m not aware of where an archive of these is if it exists but if so I can look there to find them.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

None of the three had any jump in control or potential control on the 20-80 scale and all three regressed in control statistically following the successful conclusions. That does not at all seem to be working as described and seems to have the unintended consequence of significantly worsening my players which I didn’t realize was an option. I also was happy that I got the successful results so saw no need to screenshot them in the moment. I’m not aware of where an archive of these is if it exists but if so I can look there to find them.

This is NOT the dev lab that caused this LOL. It can't. At all. I have run over 3000 years worth of data on different parts of the Dev Lab. I can tell you hands down, 100%, the Dev Lab did not do this.

So what is your TCR set at? There was a huge change in TCR in the last patch. That could do more to a player than the Dev Lab, cause like I stated, the Dev Lab won't regress unless you see a poor result! Also, you will see only <5 as in less than 5 so like 3 points, or 5 in an outcome. Oh and if you do not have the email notification turned checked where it gives you all the info in the email, I suggest to turn it on under Game>Game Settings>Player & Team near the bottom left that says "Display Lab specific ratings changes in Completion Email"

I am sorry, but the Dev Lab has not cause your issue. Something else has. probably TCR. Also, how in the world is Ryan only a 40/40 he comes in as a rookie at like 40/75

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by twins_34

This is NOT the dev lab that caused this LOL. It can't. At all. I have run over 3000 years worth of data on different parts of the Dev Lab. I can tell you hands down, 100%, the Dev Lab did not do this.

So what is your TCR set at? There was a huge change in TCR in the last patch. That could do more to a player than the Dev Lab, cause like I stated, the Dev Lab won't regress unless you see a poor result! Also, you will see only <5 as in less than 5 so like 3 points, or 5 in an outcome. Oh and if you do not have the email notification turned checked where it gives you all the info in the email, I suggest to turn it on under Game>Game Settings>Player & Team near the bottom left that says "Display Lab specific ratings changes in Completion Email"

I am sorry, but the Dev Lab has not cause your issue. Something else has. probably TCR. Also, how in the world is Ryan only a 40/40 he comes in as a rookie at like 40/75

TCR is on 50. Saying definitively it is not one thing is not a scientific approach. There are so many variables that are hard to test. In the code is it possible that a 50 TCR, that started with a 3 year recalc that was on at creation and immediately turned off create a state where this is possible? Could there be something with using the pilots and not having league evolution on created a certain environment?

There are hundreds of different combos that could create an unintended result. Saying it’s 100% not the dev lab isn’t looking for a solution.

Basic logic says three guys that all did control and had positive results but did not get the ratings result and all had a reverse in their control based statistics suggests something is amiss. What that is I don’t know and saying the dev lab is broken as a general statement is incorrect. But connecting the site means there is something at play here that doesn’t seem like it should be.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by majesty95

TCR is on 50. Saying definitively it is not one thing is not a scientific approach. There are so many variables that are hard to test. In the code is it possible that a 50 TCR, that started with a 3 year recalc that was on at creation and immediately turned off create a state where this is possible? Could there be something with using the pilots and not having league evolution on created a certain environment?

There are hundreds of different combos that could create an unintended result. Saying it’s 100% not the dev lab isn’t looking for a solution.

Basic logic says three guys that all did control and had positive results but did not get the ratings result and all had a reverse in their control based statistics suggests something is amiss. What that is I don’t know and saying the dev lab is broken as a general statement is incorrect. But connecting the site means there is something at play here that doesn’t seem like it should be.

I admire your patient restraint here; Occam is a controversial figure on these forums.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

There are hundreds of different combos that could create an unintended result. Saying it’s 100% not the dev lab isn’t looking for a solution.

No, I can say at 100% it is NOT the Dev Lab that caused these issues. I have seriously ran over 3000 games worth of data to research this, test this, report bugs, get things adjusted and fixed and I can 100% say, It is NOT the Dev Lab that caused this issue with your players control. Oh and let's not forget that, NORMAL development DOES NOT stop just because a player is in the Dev Lab for 5-6 months! That is 5 or 6 months worth of NORMAL game development that happens behind the scenes!

There are other things in this game that affect players. Morale, their personality traits, the coaches, TCR, potential, age, challenge and other factors that can affect how a player develops.

But at 100% certainty, I can say, what you experienced was not the Dev Lab. Get a successful or outstanding result will NOT ever make your control worse. This is why without proof and screenshots showing that these players lost these skills because of the Dev Lab and that it was not just normal development, makes your claim impossible to prove.

Not only that, you are using scouting. I used absolutely no scouting when I tested all these programs in the Dev Lab and not once, ever, did a pitcher lose ratings on a successful or outstanding result. They did lose ratings when they got poor results but never when it was a positive outcome.

I kinda think I will stick to my 3000+ games worth of testing this feature and I will stick to, the Dev Lab is not what caused this.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by twins_34

No, I can say at 100% it is NOT the Dev Lab that caused these issues. I have seriously ran over 3000 games worth of data to research this, test this, report bugs, get things adjusted and fixed and I can 100% say, It is NOT the Dev Lab that caused this issue with your players control. Oh and let's not forget that, NORMAL development DOES NOT stop just because a player is in the Dev Lab for 5-6 months! That is 5 or 6 months worth of NORMAL game development that happens behind the scenes!

There are other things in this game that affect players. Morale, their personality traits, the coaches, TCR, potential, age, challenge and other factors that can affect how a player develops.

But at 100% certainty, I can say, what you experienced was not the Dev Lab. Get a successful or outstanding result will NOT ever make your control worse. This is why without proof and screenshots showing that these players lost these skills because of the Dev Lab and that it was not just normal development, makes your claim impossible to prove.

Not only that, you are using scouting. I used absolutely no scouting when I tested all these programs in the Dev Lab and not once, ever, did a pitcher lose ratings on a successful or outstanding result. They did lose ratings when they got poor results but never when it was a positive outcome.

I kinda think I will stick to my 3000+ games worth of testing this feature and I will stick to, the Dev Lab is not what caused this.

You’re still hiding behind blind defense of the game. You cannot definitively say the dev lab didn’t cause it. It only happened to three players on my team and all three were in the dev lab and got positive results then regressed statistically.

As I’ve mentioned, I didn’t think I needed to screenshot as I thought it would work as intended. Dismissing my claim just because I didn’t proactively think it was going to get screwed up isn’t proof of no error occurring…

Did you program this feature? Or are you worried you failed in your testing? I don’t understand how blind defense of the lab supports anything. You even said you did test in 3,000 years with scouting on so your testing was incomplete and not comprehensive.

The entire point of discussion is to find solution and fix problems. Just blindly defending it and stating it’s 100% not possible is unproductive and you cannot definitely say that as you obviously have no clue how programming works.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

You’re still hiding behind blind defense of the game. You cannot definitively say the dev lab didn’t cause it. It only happened to three players on my team and all three were in the dev lab and got positive results then regressed statistically.

As I’ve mentioned, I didn’t think I needed to screenshot as I thought it would work as intended. Dismissing my claim just because I didn’t proactively think it was going to get screwed up isn’t proof of no error occurring…

Did you program this feature? Or are you worried you failed in your testing? I don’t understand how blind defense of the lab supports anything. You even said you did test in 3,000 years with scouting on so your testing was incomplete and not comprehensive.

The entire point of discussion is to find solution and fix problems. Just blindly defending it and stating it’s 100% not possible is unproductive and you cannot definitely say that as you obviously have no clue how programming works.

How do you fix a problem when you are pointing at the wrong suspect. I am sorry you have no idea how the development works in the game. You say you have been playing for 20 years yet, are gaslighting me telling ME that I am hiding behind behind a blind defense when you can't even admit you have no idea how something works lol. That you can't admit that for 5 to 6 months that you can't admit that it is VERY possible that OTHER regression happened that had NOTHING to do with the Development Lab lol. You just blindly BLAME the Dev Lab.

I am sorry but you are just flat out wrong. Prove it to me and the Devs that the issue was the Dev Lab and not "Just because they were in the Dev Lab" lol. Sadly, you can't. 10 different parts of development could have happened in them 5 to 6 months yet your answer is the Dev Lab. Do you even see how silly that really is? Yet, people all over the forums are saying how the change in TCR seems to be hitting players more negatively then positively and yeah TCR would hit both of these players in a negative aspect because of just this reason:

Ryan has NO positive personality traits, has no room in potential

Chance & (TCR)
Chance also plays a hand in rating changes. Sometimes, the light bulb inside a player's head will just go on, and he will jump to a new level of play. Players can experience significant changes in their ratings and potential in a short time. Of course, the same is true in reverse. Some players will never live up to their potential.

Negative or no positive qualities on a player will mean natural regression and negative TCR regression can happen more often then positive.

So, where you should point your finger is at NATURAL development or in your case, regression of players that have no outstanding positive traits.

I think I have given more than enough reasons why it is not the Dev Lab, not my fault you won't listen. Also, if you can not give the Devs hard truth or facts to WHY it is the Dev Lab, and guess what, you will get the same answer from them as you are from me.

But Good luck.

[Matt Arnold]

If you want to share more details, we'd be happy to investigate. The player history I believe will list the development lab results (at least the general category), so including that would help. Seeing the player's scouting report history could help see how the ratings have shifted over time.

It's also possible there's more at play than simply the development lab. Did the league totals shift between the seasons? Did something else change in their usage or strategies? Did either play through an injury for a stretch that impacted them?

It may simply be bad luck in the partial season too. 10 starts is not a massive sample size to deal with, it may normalize through the rest of the season. Although his actual control rating being a 30 I would still expect walks to hurt him significantly.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

If you want to share more details, we'd be happy to investigate. The player history I believe will list the development lab results (at least the general category), so including that would help. Seeing the player's scouting report history could help see how the ratings have shifted over time.

It's also possible there's more at play than simply the development lab. Did the league totals shift between the seasons? Did something else change in their usage or strategies? Did either play through an injury for a stretch that impacted them?

It may simply be bad luck in the partial season too. 10 starts is not a massive sample size to deal with, it may normalize through the rest of the season. Although his actual control rating being a 30 I would still expect walks to hurt him significantly.

I have strategies an financials set to not change. I’ll have to look at league totals. Like I said, it was concerning bc those three specifically were the only ones that had that regression and they were all in the dev lab.

I can send you the file. I’ll also look when I can back on at their histories.

I appreciate the response!

[majesty95]

Welp, just found another issue.

Started a different historical file while I decide if I want to continue on the one from the original post. I have Managing Dev Lab set to my user. The only thing set to AI is Minor League lineups, Strategy and dev focus.

I simmed to the draft which was Nov 8. Arbitration was Nov 9 and start of free agency was Nov 11. I'm on Nov 14 and went it to assign guys to the dev lab as I was waiting on all my draftees to sign. Well, the AI already has five guys in there all on 4-5 month assignments. And only one was "maybe" a guy I would have put in there. Theyre all struggling or frustrated.

So now, I spent another couple hours setting up a new file and my first off-season is ruined by the AI auto assigning guys to the dev lab.

Now, if this is because Nov 14 is too late to add guys to the dev lab, then there needs to be a warning and a notification that X date is the last date to assign guys to the dev lab. However, the AI still shouldnt auto assign it. Also, there should be a way to recall someone from their assignment specifically for this kind of instance. Or maybe bc a player is stuggling or frustrated and you decide to pull them and use a shorter assignment for someone else.

Its getting increasingly frustrating that you spend a couple hours setting up a file to play, adjusting market sizes and fan loyalty and whatever else you want to tinker with, and the file gets ruined or perceived to be ruined, because of something the AI does that it shouldnt.

It makes you feel like your time isnt appreciated as a consumer of the product. I dont have to spend hours playing NBA 2k's historical seasons. I can jump right in and play. Yes, OOTP allows you more customization, but what good is that customization if your season is ruined by AI issues that shouldnt have been there to begin with.

I feel like the deeper in we get with this game, historicals take longer and longer to set up bc of all of the options. And then because of all of the options and the numerous variables, you almost always run into something that breaks the game or at least your immersion in it.

I've had league totals get screwed up in historicals before several seasons in. I've had weird ratings things happen where a bunch of players just nose dive in one off-season (I never play with TCR over 50). I've had financial issues where half or more of the teams are out of money 5-6 seasons in.

It gets to the point where the frustration outweighs the fun. You have to spend hours setting things up like you like and then run "test" sims 20 years in with your set up to make sure nothing breaks. By that time you've lost your interest to actually play the game.

I've played OOTP more than any other game over the last 20 years. And Madden is the only one I've played consistently, longer. And I've pretty much quit playing Madden bc of AI issues and bugs. I feel like OOTP is getting to be the same.

Maybe modern day and perfect team are the only way to go now. But Im a historical guy. That's what brought me to OOTP in the first place. And now every release is just ruined file after ruined file and hours and hours of wasted time.