Failed Starters are Better than Many "Good Relievers"

PSUColonel · 12-17-2022, 02:35 PM

Do any of you find the best relief pitchers to be failed starters? Those pitchers with 4 or 5 pitches that have reasonably decent grades? stuff might be a 55, movement maybe a 50 and control 60. They are usually rated as a 45 or 50 overall as a SP, but make excellent bullpen pieces just because they might be a roundballer, and might have more stamina, and maybe don't have platoon issues.

I am not saying they are better options than elite relief pitchers, but I think they are better than most of the spare parts I can find to piece together a reasonably decent bullpen. I don't like paying big bucks for RP unless they are elite because they are just that...spare parts. You can find them on waivers, you can find them in FA, you can usually trade for one, and to pay anything more than a million or so for these type of players is a waste IMHO.

So, I am sold on the idea of piecing my bullpen together with a lot of back of the rotation/failed starter type pitchers. They are reasonable in price (maybe more than some normal relievers...but that's ok) and they serve multiple purposes. 1. They don't tire easily, and can give you multiple innings without a struggle. 2. They can serve as long relief pitchers if need be. 3. They give depth to your rotation in case of injury or poor performance. 4. Having a 4 or 5 pitch pitcher is usually always better than a 2 or two and a half pitch type pitcher.

Any thoughts?

Bluenoser · 12-17-2022, 03:05 PM

I don't necessarily find those type pitchers make the best relievers, but they are great to have in your pen.

I tend to keep a couple of "Border line" starters in my pen for the very things you mentioned. Long relief, sport start, and depth.

Border line could be a guy with 5 pitches and not enough stamina to be a bonafide starter, or maybe a guy who's 3rd pitch never develops. Just a couple examples.

I still like to keep top end relievers though, baseball is so situational at times you just need them.

BIG17EASY · 12-17-2022, 04:03 PM

All leagues tend to evolve a little differently, so people will have different experiences, but the vast majority of the good relievers in my league are all true relievers. There are some "failed starters" who make good swingmen or middle relief options, but they tend to not have elite stuff, which is key to being a really good reliever.

kq76 · 12-17-2022, 04:24 PM

Well I guess I'll do the old obligatory: all relievers are failed starters.

I do like them however and I do think they're better than the average reliever. I currently have 2 on my team and both could start if need be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

1. They don't tire easily, and can give you multiple innings without a struggle. 2. They can serve as long relief pitchers if need be. 3. They give depth to your rotation in case of injury or poor performance. 4. Having a 4 or 5 pitch pitcher is usually always better than a 2 or two and a half pitch type pitcher.

Any thoughts?

1. How many good innings are you getting out of your relievers? I think you can normally only get 2, maybe 3, serviceable innings out of even a high stamina reliever.

3. This is why I like them. If I lose a starter due to injury or they're just slumping, I'll throw one of my SP/RPs in for a start, maybe more if he pitches well. Maybe the SP he replaced will become the SP/RP.

4. Are they? If we're just talking relief, not starting, and everything else is equal, like their base ratings, I haven't really noticed 4 or 5 pitch relievers pitch better than 2 pitch relievers.

BIG17EASY · 12-17-2022, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

4. Are they? If we're just talking relief, not starting, and everything else is equal, like their base ratings, I haven't really noticed 4 or 5 pitch relievers pitch better than 2 pitch relievers.

Perhaps things have changed and I'm not aware, but I know that multiple versions ago one of the devs confirmed on the boards that relievers mainly use their two best pitches, even if they have more than that. It's possible that was changed at some point. I don't play out games, so I don't have any evidence that it still works that way.

Pelican · 12-17-2022, 08:26 PM

As a Phillies fan, I see this through the lens of Ranger Suarez and Zach Eflin. Two starters who excelled in relief roles. So, yeah, it can happen IRL. Guys who can be used to close, or to hurl two or three innings in relief. Like that.

In OOTP, I have had some success, across multiple eras BTW, using “failed” starters in relief. They usually do not become closers. But they can be what the game calls “stoppers” in late innings. More conventionally, they are great middle relief guys who can throw multiple pitches across two or three innings and keep your team in games. I think of those guys as potentially having impeccable win/loss records, because they come in when the team is behind, thus can’t get charged with the loss, and, if the team rallies, they get the win.

PSUColonel · 12-17-2022, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelican

As a Phillies fan, I see this through the lens of Ranger Suarez and Zach Eflin. Two starters who excelled in relief roles. So, yeah, it can happen IRL. Guys who can be used to close, or to hurl two or three innings in relief. Like that.

In OOTP, I have had some success, across multiple eras BTW, using “failed” starters in relief. They usually do not become closers. But they can be what the game calls “stoppers” in late innings. More conventionally, they are great middle relief guys who can throw multiple pitches across two or three innings and keep your team in games. I think of those guys as potentially having impeccable win/loss records, because they come in when the team is behind, thus can’t get charged with the loss, and, if the team rallies, they get the win.

Great example...I am also a Phillies fan (used to fill in to cover some of the games down at the old Vet) and these two pitchers are precisely the type of players I am talking about. These probably aren't the greatest starters on earth, but they really do excel in the pen. Ths doesn't mean they aren't serviceable as starters (maybe even a bit better) but they truly excel in the bullpen. You can use them multiple days in a row, and not worry too much either.

Speaking of this and thinking of the contract negotiation thread...I'd like to see players unwilling to negotiate with teams' unless you agree to use them a certain way. I know we. have "promises" now, but will players outright not talk talk to you (negotiate) if you won't adhere to their demands, or better yet, ignore their demands during the season??

MathBandit · 12-17-2022, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Speaking of this and thinking of the contract negotiation thread...I'd like to see players unwilling to negotiate with teams' unless you agree to use them a certain way. I know we. have "promises" now, but will players outright not talk talk to you (negotiate) if you won't adhere to their demands, or better yet, ignore their demands during the season??

This is a good idea. It would also be another 'nerf' to the human player if you stockpile bench bats and relief arms that would be starters/closers elsewhere but are just bench and middle-relief filler for you, and that led other players to be less likely to sign with you if they are worried it will cost them playing time.

discodude5 · 12-18-2022, 12:18 AM

I usually seem to have one guy like this who does much better in the pen than I expected.
I also usually end up needing a starter due to injuries or performance and wish this guy who has good stamina and 4 above average pitches could be this effective as a starter. Da lazy bum just wants to work part time.

12-17-2022, 02:35 PM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,117	Failed Starters are Better than Many "Good Relievers" Do any of you find the best relief pitchers to be failed starters? Those pitchers with 4 or 5 pitches that have reasonably decent grades? stuff might be a 55, movement maybe a 50 and control 60. They are usually rated as a 45 or 50 overall as a SP, but make excellent bullpen pieces just because they might be a roundballer, and might have more stamina, and maybe don't have platoon issues. I am not saying they are better options than elite relief pitchers, but I think they are better than most of the spare parts I can find to piece together a reasonably decent bullpen. I don't like paying big bucks for RP unless they are elite because they are just that...spare parts. You can find them on waivers, you can find them in FA, you can usually trade for one, and to pay anything more than a million or so for these type of players is a waste IMHO. So, I am sold on the idea of piecing my bullpen together with a lot of back of the rotation/failed starter type pitchers. They are reasonable in price (maybe more than some normal relievers...but that's ok) and they serve multiple purposes. 1. They don't tire easily, and can give you multiple innings without a struggle. 2. They can serve as long relief pitchers if need be. 3. They give depth to your rotation in case of injury or poor performance. 4. Having a 4 or 5 pitch pitcher is usually always better than a 2 or two and a half pitch type pitcher. Any thoughts?

12-17-2022, 08:26 PM	#6
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,050	As a Phillies fan, I see this through the lens of Ranger Suarez and Zach Eflin. Two starters who excelled in relief roles. So, yeah, it can happen IRL. Guys who can be used to close, or to hurl two or three innings in relief. Like that. In OOTP, I have had some success, across multiple eras BTW, using “failed” starters in relief. They usually do not become closers. But they can be what the game calls “stoppers” in late innings. More conventionally, they are great middle relief guys who can throw multiple pitches across two or three innings and keep your team in games. I think of those guys as potentially having impeccable win/loss records, because they come in when the team is behind, thus can’t get charged with the loss, and, if the team rallies, they get the win. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.”

12-17-2022, 03:05 PM	#2
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,250	I don't necessarily find those type pitchers make the best relievers, but they are great to have in your pen. I tend to keep a couple of "Border line" starters in my pen for the very things you mentioned. Long relief, sport start, and depth. Border line could be a guy with 5 pitches and not enough stamina to be a bonafide starter, or maybe a guy who's 3rd pitch never develops. Just a couple examples. I still like to keep top end relievers though, baseball is so situational at times you just need them.

12-17-2022, 04:03 PM	#3
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	All leagues tend to evolve a little differently, so people will have different experiences, but the vast majority of the good relievers in my league are all true relievers. There are some "failed starters" who make good swingmen or middle relief options, but they tend to not have elite stuff, which is key to being a really good reliever.

12-18-2022, 12:18 AM	#9
discodude5 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 370	I usually seem to have one guy like this who does much better in the pen than I expected. I also usually end up needing a starter due to injuries or performance and wish this guy who has good stamina and 4 above average pitches could be this effective as a starter. Da lazy bum just wants to work part time.