Could an option be added so we can force our closer into the stopper role?

malichai11 · 03-23-2017, 03:18 PM

I realize I could just change the entire league settings to normal for closer use and then EVERYONE uses stoppers instead of closers, but I'd rather just have that option as a force role option in player strategy. You can force role reliever, closer, or starter, but not stopper. When you get one of those high stamina, two pitch relievers, I'd rather force him to be a stopper and override the closer role, w/o forcing every team in the league to use stoppers.

Also, without the force stopper role, during the years where the stopper role is active, you can't change who your stopper is by forcing the role change as GM-only player, you can only force another pitcher to be a closer.

NoOne · 03-23-2017, 08:58 PM

I'd like having all options available to a human palyer, for sure. i'm not a traditionalist... i will use what works best, regardless. if that means stealing and running (which in my leagues enviroments is definitely not the case), then i will do those things. it doesn't happen by design, in this case, but not relevant to the parallel being drawn.

anyone who likes different strategies than modern may warm up to modern play, too, since they can play/manage in the prefered method.

kq76 · 03-24-2017, 03:47 AM

You should define exactly what you mean. Do you mean an elite reliever whom you bring into high leverage situations and later gets replaced by another reliever or do you mean a closer who often goes longer than 1 inning?

NoOne · 03-24-2017, 05:53 AM

the roles are different for various League Settings strategies / eras in the game.

i think he means access to the "stopper" role, regardless of those dropdown boxes... and definitely what i meant when i took it a step further

sounds like it's never a "force role" option in player strategies, either... restrict ai (or maybe just 99% of the time), but give humans access to all those choices... we get the chance to be a trend setter as opposed to mindless sheep

(reference to RL, not the video game... any new idea or way of doing things is met with fear and attacked typically... but it still occurs. think joe madden's willingness to do somethign different -> rare but happens within an era -- bad example, i don't think he's doing much relevant that's entirely outside-the-box or actualy merit/benefit from 'normal')

roarke · 03-24-2017, 01:28 PM

The "problem" as I see it (which isn't really a problem, per se) is that the role of 'stopper' doesn't (and shouldn't) have a singular definition. The beauty of utilizing this strategy is that managers are starting to ignore defined roles and use the talent available to them in the situations in which they are best suited. If your stopper is lefthanded you might have different parameters around his usage than if he is righthanded; if your opponent's lineup sets up certain ways you might have different usage than if it sets up in other ways. This type of usage doesn't lend itself very well to auto-playing a simulation, unfortunately, but in my mind, that is the utility of the strategy of a stopper.

RchW · 03-24-2017, 01:34 PM

A compromise could be "semi-forcing" a role with multiple inning stints.

Edit:

There are a couple of threads on this. Before the advent of strict closers the stopper was the closer in that he got the majority of saves, games finished, and took some losses. Managers at that time used them until they weren't available and then used the next guy in line.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper

I'm still not convinced that stopper was exclusively a RP. Are there news reports from the 70's and 80's referencing Fingers and Gossage as "stoppers"? I saw the term applied to SP in the 1960's and 70's

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper

malichai11 · 03-24-2017, 01:38 PM

I understand the nuance of what you're saying roarke, and you're correctly identifying that this is a simulator's problem. But, the game engine already has a defined idea of what a stopper is if you have closers set to average use. All I want is forced-role-access to that specific stopper role that exists inside the engine already.

malichai11 · 03-24-2017, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

A compromise could be "semi-forcing" a role with multiple inning stints.

I'm not sure I follow you. How would this work?

RchW · 03-24-2017, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malichai11

I'm not sure I follow you. How would this work?

A role that defaults to multi inning use. Not my best idea because stoppers if they existed did both ie 1 inning saves and 7-GF roles including those in losing games.

Elendil · 03-24-2017, 07:49 PM

Yasss this

joefromchicago · 03-24-2017, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I'm still not convinced that stopper was exclusively a RP. Are there news reports from the 70's and 80's referencing Fingers and Gossage as "stoppers"? I saw the term applied to SP in the 1960's and 70's

The term was used for both starters and relievers - a starter would be a "losing-streak stopper" while a reliever would be a "rally stopper." This is a fairly typical example from 1950:

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And yes, Gossage and Fingers were referred to as "stoppers." From 1978:

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NoOne · 03-25-2017, 06:19 PM

workaround -

Don't assign a closer. use them as LR / High Leverage and see what happens... or MR/high levererage...

they still won't go multi-innings late in teh game... but they will likely reach 100+ innings. well, if you have 3 (2 su and 1 cl) in this role, maybe 70-90ip each.

Human fix is easy: simply allow access to all role types, regardless of era.. and restrict the AI as normal. they all exist even if you can't see them.. htey merely aren't "seen" in the bullpen depth chart drop down boxes due to the strategy settings in league settings. this is as simple as removing a nested if for humans and just pooping all options out with no qualifications.

if it were a txt config file, you could go edit the value for "closer" and change it to Stopper... for example.. it's there, the game knows how to use it still...you just can't select it. therefor, very simple to allow it. little time / little effort to do

AI "Fix" suggestion:

if they want a little nuance like a 'weird' manager that defies tradition, make that a random part of the coaches profile that can occur "rarely." (however they want to define rarely; however it would fit into current code easily despite how i describe it).

those random coaches with this ability will have access to other roles... and if their strategy sliders fit, they will use them -- not a forced thing, but when it makes sense relative to that coaches strategy sliders.

i.e. a manager that is strict ont he closer role slider would never use the stopper role in the bullpen.

So, you cna get a "whacky" manager that manages more like 1950 in 2016... but not guaranteed. probably a bad example, and you'd likely never see a 4-man rotations etc... so some exclusions are likely necessary. I'm sure you could find a RL example of someone that still bunts at a much higher frequency than what you see typically (or somethign similar). this would allow for someone like Madden to crop up (although i don't think he's that odd.. even the odd things he does he explains and youknow they ar etemporary and based on very localized reasons)

03-23-2017, 03:18 PM	#1
malichai11 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 282	Could an option be added so we can force our closer into the stopper role? I realize I could just change the entire league settings to normal for closer use and then EVERYONE uses stoppers instead of closers, but I'd rather just have that option as a force role option in player strategy. You can force role reliever, closer, or starter, but not stopper. When you get one of those high stamina, two pitch relievers, I'd rather force him to be a stopper and override the closer role, w/o forcing every team in the league to use stoppers. Also, without the force stopper role, during the years where the stopper role is active, you can't change who your stopper is by forcing the role change as GM-only player, you can only force another pitcher to be a closer. Last edited by malichai11; 03-23-2017 at 03:25 PM.

03-24-2017, 03:47 AM	#3
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,798	You should define exactly what you mean. Do you mean an elite reliever whom you bring into high leverage situations and later gets replaced by another reliever or do you mean a closer who often goes longer than 1 inning? __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

03-24-2017, 05:53 AM	#4
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	the roles are different for various League Settings strategies / eras in the game. i think he means access to the "stopper" role, regardless of those dropdown boxes... and definitely what i meant when i took it a step further sounds like it's never a "force role" option in player strategies, either... restrict ai (or maybe just 99% of the time), but give humans access to all those choices... we get the chance to be a trend setter as opposed to mindless sheep (reference to RL, not the video game... any new idea or way of doing things is met with fear and attacked typically... but it still occurs. think joe madden's willingness to do somethign different -> rare but happens within an era -- bad example, i don't think he's doing much relevant that's entirely outside-the-box or actualy merit/benefit from 'normal') Last edited by NoOne; 03-24-2017 at 06:00 AM.

03-24-2017, 01:34 PM	#6
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	A compromise could be "semi-forcing" a role with multiple inning stints. Edit: There are a couple of threads on this. Before the advent of strict closers the stopper was the closer in that he got the majority of saves, games finished, and took some losses. Managers at that time used them until they weren't available and then used the next guy in line. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper I'm still not convinced that stopper was exclusively a RP. Are there news reports from the 70's and 80's referencing Fingers and Gossage as "stoppers"? I saw the term applied to SP in the 1960's and 70's http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...hlight=stopper __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit Last edited by RchW; 03-24-2017 at 01:53 PM.

03-24-2017, 07:49 PM	#10
Elendil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the dynasty forum Posts: 2,318	Yasss this __________________ Heaven is kicking back with a double Talisker and a churchwarden stuffed with latakia.

03-23-2017, 08:58 PM	#2
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	I'd like having all options available to a human palyer, for sure. i'm not a traditionalist... i will use what works best, regardless. if that means stealing and running (which in my leagues enviroments is definitely not the case), then i will do those things. it doesn't happen by design, in this case, but not relevant to the parallel being drawn. anyone who likes different strategies than modern may warm up to modern play, too, since they can play/manage in the prefered method.

03-24-2017, 01:28 PM	#5
roarke Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 4	The "problem" as I see it (which isn't really a problem, per se) is that the role of 'stopper' doesn't (and shouldn't) have a singular definition. The beauty of utilizing this strategy is that managers are starting to ignore defined roles and use the talent available to them in the situations in which they are best suited. If your stopper is lefthanded you might have different parameters around his usage than if he is righthanded; if your opponent's lineup sets up certain ways you might have different usage than if it sets up in other ways. This type of usage doesn't lend itself very well to auto-playing a simulation, unfortunately, but in my mind, that is the utility of the strategy of a stopper.

03-24-2017, 01:38 PM	#7
malichai11 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 282	I understand the nuance of what you're saying roarke, and you're correctly identifying that this is a simulator's problem. But, the game engine already has a defined idea of what a stopper is if you have closers set to average use. All I want is forced-role-access to that specific stopper role that exists inside the engine already.

03-25-2017, 06:19 PM	#12
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	workaround - Don't assign a closer. use them as LR / High Leverage and see what happens... or MR/high levererage... they still won't go multi-innings late in teh game... but they will likely reach 100+ innings. well, if you have 3 (2 su and 1 cl) in this role, maybe 70-90ip each. Human fix is easy: simply allow access to all role types, regardless of era.. and restrict the AI as normal. they all exist even if you can't see them.. htey merely aren't "seen" in the bullpen depth chart drop down boxes due to the strategy settings in league settings. this is as simple as removing a nested if for humans and just pooping all options out with no qualifications. if it were a txt config file, you could go edit the value for "closer" and change it to Stopper... for example.. it's there, the game knows how to use it still...you just can't select it. therefor, very simple to allow it. little time / little effort to do AI "Fix" suggestion: if they want a little nuance like a 'weird' manager that defies tradition, make that a random part of the coaches profile that can occur "rarely." (however they want to define rarely; however it would fit into current code easily despite how i describe it). those random coaches with this ability will have access to other roles... and if their strategy sliders fit, they will use them -- not a forced thing, but when it makes sense relative to that coaches strategy sliders. i.e. a manager that is strict ont he closer role slider would never use the stopper role in the bullpen. So, you cna get a "whacky" manager that manages more like 1950 in 2016... but not guaranteed. probably a bad example, and you'd likely never see a 4-man rotations etc... so some exclusions are likely necessary. I'm sure you could find a RL example of someone that still bunts at a much higher frequency than what you see typically (or somethign similar). this would allow for someone like Madden to crop up (although i don't think he's that odd.. even the odd things he does he explains and youknow they ar etemporary and based on very localized reasons) Last edited by NoOne; 03-25-2017 at 06:29 PM.