Finances Clarity

[Winnipeg59]

While improvements to the financial model would of course be welcomed, I would first REALLY love a detailed explanation of the current financial model and how to make it perform effectively in a number of scenarios.

I am sure there is (or has been) detailed discussion of how to make this work in the game and how various factors influence how the money in the game reacts - profit, cash, payroll budget vs all of that. I would LOVE it if a "detailed" explanation of how finances in OOTP work came from the source!

And not just how the model works, BUT even better would be to please provide a "detailed" explanation of how they can be tweaked in either a solo game or especially in an online league to perform in certain ways.

- For example, "if scenario X happens, then it's best to monitor and adjust settings A, B or C to bring the league back to where you expect it to be."

- Or, "to influence the effect of J in the game, tweaks can be made to K and L in the following way."

- Or, before even starting your solo or online league provide an explanation of several ways to customize the finances to make it perform in a certain way.

IF/WHEN the manual is updated, this would be a more than welcomed addition to the manual or could be a standalone exercise in any number of ways - Blog post, developer diary, video explanation, stand alone PDF included in the game folders somewhere (in my opinion of course).

[Matt Arnold]

Finances are challenging. Our first goal is to make sure the finance view in-game makes sense, so that you don't have the "mystery numbers" that versions in the past have had (ie. having absolutely no idea why you did not have the money to do a certain move). I think 16 will solve some of those flaws.

But otherwise, yes, we likely should spend some effort documenting the financial model. I don't like doing it, but I do agree that it should be done.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Finances are challenging. Our first goal is to make sure the finance view in-game makes sense, so that you don't have the "mystery numbers" that versions in the past have had (ie. having absolutely no idea why you did not have the money to do a certain move). I think 16 will solve some of those flaws.

Honestly, I've never understood the finance model that OOTP uses. I understand that it's based primarily on a team's budget rather than on a simple "money-in, money-out" accounting model, but that has never really made much sense to me, and the numbers, at times, are baffling. Any improvements in this area would be greatly appreciated.

[blasek0]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Honestly, I've never understood the finance model that OOTP uses. I understand that it's based primarily on a team's budget rather than on a simple "money-in, money-out" accounting model, but that has never really made much sense to me, and the numbers, at times, are baffling. Any improvements in this area would be greatly appreciated.

The budget number is also assigned somewhat arbitrarily, and will vary even if you're playing in a league with forced identical revenues.

Set every team to have a national revenue of $X, check the box that forces everyone onto the same national media deal, turn off local and gate revenue, and budgets will still vary up and down team by team, even though every team will have the exact same revenue.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by blasek0

The budget number is also assigned somewhat arbitrarily, and will vary even if you're playing in a league with forced identical revenues.

Set every team to have a national revenue of $X, check the box that forces everyone onto the same national media deal, turn off local and gate revenue, and budgets will still vary up and down team by team, even though every team will have the exact same revenue.

Not saying it's right in OOTP but that's how businesses work all the time including sports teams. At one time the company I worked for was owned by an investment fund and they extracted every penny out of the business while scrutinizing every expense with continuous cost cutting and little innovation. The only concern was profit/maximum return for the fund. When we were sold to an owner that wanted to grow the actual business budgets grew exponentially even as revenue fell at first. Within 3 years both profit and revenue grew well ahead of the market and continued for many years afterward.

There are many examples of these and other types of business models in sports.

[blasek0]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not saying it's right in OOTP but that's how businesses work all the time including sports teams. At one time the company I worked for was owned by an investment fund and they extracted every penny out of the business while scrutinizing every expense with continuous cost cutting and little innovation. The only concern was profit/maximum return for the fund. When we were sold to an owner that wanted to grow the actual business budgets grew exponentially even as revenue fell at first. Within 3 years both profit and revenue grew well ahead of the market and continued for many years afterward.

There are many examples of these and other types of business models in sports.

Yes, when there's some other factor at work setting the budget, this should definitely be the case.

OOTP, however, continues to do that even with owner control of the budget turned off. If there's no owner control of the budget and the entire revenue stream is available, where the revenue stream is going to be some fixed value, the game-assigned budget should probably be that fixed value, not some variable only centered around that value and fluctuating by 40%.

[Winnipeg59]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Finances are challenging. Our first goal is to make sure the finance view in-game makes sense, so that you don't have the "mystery numbers" that versions in the past have had (ie. having absolutely no idea why you did not have the money to do a certain move). I think 16 will solve some of those flaws.

But otherwise, yes, we likely should spend some effort documenting the financial model. I don't like doing it, but I do agree that it should be done.

Matt,
Thanks for this comment. I am excited by the tiny hint that 16 has some financial adjustments potentially in the works.

When I explore the online manual I realize that it tells you "what" everything does, but it seems it tells you what each setting does in isolation. Especially in the case of finances, I would really love to hear more about the tweaks one can make with the existing game or the checks and balances one should look for when playing out a league, solo or especially online to make it do what you're intending it to do, in any number of scenarios.

Again, I am sure the OOTP team have those kinds of discussions around the table when the game is being created and/or tested.

Another place, not to take this into a completely different area, where the finances could also be tighten (and explained) is the concept of a "salary cap". While baseball IRL doesn't have one, many other major league sports do now. The concept is in OOTP right now, but the mechanics involved are a little funky (at least to me). For example, you can set a team salary cap but the game will also set payroll budgets well above that number occasionally which, to me at least, is curious. I would expect that if there is a cap imposed in the game then the payroll budget would always be no higher (and in fact no lower) than the cap.

I also fully realize that tweaking the guts of finances or the negotiating strength of the AI or the AI logic involved in executing trades within the game is certainly not a "sexy" marketing point to get more people in the front door but (imho), it would certainly make an incredible game even more incredible for those that are already here!

Thanks again commenting. Can't wait for some more info on OOTP16!

[Bristolduke]

Originally Posted by blasek0

Yes, when there's some other factor at work setting the budget, this should definitely be the case.

OOTP, however, continues to do that even with owner control of the budget turned off. If there's no owner control of the budget and the entire revenue stream is available, where the revenue stream is going to be some fixed value, the game-assigned budget should probably be that fixed value, not some variable only centered around that value and fluctuating by 40%.

I can't find the link at the moment, but I have described the budget process. It is based upon your team's financial performance as compared to the league average. So if you lose money in a season and the league average is making money your budget will go down. If you make a profit better than the league average your budget will go up.


Win-loss record is a factor but not a large one. For example, winning will not increase your budget if you are operating in a loss (unless the league as a whole is operating at a loss).


That is why it fluctuates.

[Le Grande Orange]

As always, a key point here is real-world reference data to serve as the foundation upon which the game's financial model can be (re)built. I've got plenty of such data.

[darkcloud4579]

Only been working on this topic for nearly a decade. It's not sexy enough to make it anywhere, tho.