Have minor league "Options" been fixed?

[JTSMOOTH]

Just a quick question for Markus or anyone in the know....Have the minor league options been fixed for the upcoming release?

Since its been broken from version 6.5 and on, I would assume that it remains broken, but hey a guy can dream

So just curious if that issue has finally been addressed?

Thanx

JT

[Erik W.]

What about them is broken?

[JTSMOOTH]

What about them is broken?

They don't function correctly

I don't want to get into a big campaign to get them fixed again, been there and done that multiple times already(not to mention Im sure its too late anyways), obviously if Markus has not fixed it in 3 or 4 real life years, he doesn't really hold the realistic roster management in high regard, which is certainly his prerogative seeing as how its his game....

But yeah, the minor league player options do not, nor have they ever functioned correctly.

Well they work half the time. If a team has a player who is out of options and on a big league roster in OOTP, the game handles minor league options just fine....The problem is the minor league players who are on the 40 man roster and out of options that can just sit in the minor leagues for an eternity.

Its kind of funny that OOTP makes players use "option years" when they are added to the 40 man roster and playing at the minor league level, but all the sudden when they run out of options and continue playing at the minor league level it does nothing...Why even keep track of minor league options if your not going to enforce them? lol

Sure its useful for the players who get added to the Big Leagues, but why only make it work half the time? I understand mistakes are made, but wouldn't you think a game that wants to be considered the top baseball simulation out there would correct a major flaw in roster management sometime over a 3 year period?

All players on the 40 man roster should have to be "optioned" to the minor leagues if they fail to make the big league 25 man roster. If they are out of options, they have to clear waivers in order to be assigned to the minor leagues. No minor league player on the 40 man roster, who is out of options should be allowed to play at the minor league level, without clearing waivers first.

Or have they finally done so?

JT

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

All players on the 40 man roster should have to be "optioned" to the minor leagues if they fail to make the big league 25 man roster. If they are out of options, they have to clear waivers in order to be assigned to the minor leagues. No minor league player on the 40 man roster, who is out of options should be allowed to play at the minor league level, without clearing waivers first.

Just to restate the above in a different way that might make the rules involved more clear to those not familiar with them:

The ONLY way a player on the 40-man roster can be in the minor leagues is if he's on an optional assignment (meaning the major league club can recall him to the 25-man active list). If the player is out of options, then he CANNOT be on the 40-man roster AND in the minor leagues at the same time. He can only be on the 25-man active list if he's has no option years left.

To assign a player out of options to the minor leagues, this means removing him from the 40-man roster. This is called an outright assignment, which means the major league club no longer has any title to the player and cannot recall him to the majors like they can with a player on an optional assignment. Whenever a player is being outrighted, he first must clear waivers (outright assignment waivers to be precise) which gives all the other clubs in the majors the chance to claim him if they want. If no club does, then the player is assigned to the minor league club and removed from the 40-man roster.

[andymac]

So, if the player clears waivers they have to be removed from the 40-man roster? Why?

[zekester91]

Originally Posted by andymac

So, if the player clears waivers they have to be removed from the 40-man roster? Why?

That is the way the MLB rule is, also in OOTP that the rule differs is you can send a player to the minor and have him down there for years without eating up option years, but in the MLB rules it would. In MLB Every year a player is in the minors and on the 40 man roster you use an option year, in OOTP you only use an option year if he's in the majors and then send him to the minors. It's just the slight differences between MLB and OOTP. Some people call these bugs, others just think that this is a better way to do it.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by andymac

So, if the player clears waivers they have to be removed from the 40-man roster?

It's the other way around: the club wants to remove the player from the 40-man roster, but before it can do so officially it must first offer the player to the other clubs in the league. If no other clubs claim the player (that is, the other teams waive their right to claim the player — hence the term waivers), then he can be assigned outright to the minor leagues and removed from the 40-man roster.

The rule originated early in baseball history as a form of protection for the player. Rather than being outrighted to the minors and losing all opportunity to continue as a major leaguer, with outright waivers the player now has the chance to remain in the major leagues if another club still sees value in him and is willing to take on his contract.

Unconditional release waivers work the same way. Other clubs get a chance to claim the player being released, and if no other clubs are interested, then the player is released (and becomes a free agent).

[andymac]

Right, but what if you want to demote a guy to AAA who is out of options but you don't want to remove him from the 40-man. Obviously, he has to pass through waivers but what I gathered from what you wrote earlier you are saying that if he makes it through they have to remove him from the 40-man unless he is going back to the 25-man roster.

[JTSMOOTH]

in OOTP you only use an option year if he's in the majors and then send him to the minors

Not necessarily true, unless things are changing for the forthcoming version...

In past OOTP versions, players on the 40 man roster and in the minor leagues did use an option year as they should, the problem is, once they run out of options nothing happens unless you bring them to the Big Leagues and then try to send them back down...

Why even introduce the player options into OOTP if you can just keep a guy in the minors for as long as you see fit?

Doesn't that pretty much go against the whole purpose for even having player options in the game?

JT

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by andymac

Right, but what if you want to demote a guy to AAA who is out of options but you don't want to remove him from the 40-man.

That's just it — you cannot do that. It's either one or the other for such players: on the 25-man active list (and 40-man roster), or in the minors and removed from the 40-man roster.

Remember, the 40-man roster is made up of 25 players on the active list and 15 players on optional assignment to the minor leagues.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's just it — you cannot do that. It's either one or the other for such players: on the 25-man active list (and 40-man roster), or in the minors and removed from the 40-man roster.

Remember, the 40-man roster is made up of 25 players on the active list and 15 players on optional assignment to the minor leagues.

Got it. Thanks.

[PSUColonel]

So I guess Markus has no plans to reflect this...otherwise I think we would have been told so.

[OldFatGuy]

So, let me see if I've got this straight (I've not yet begun with minors, only reserves since I'm still a noob). What everyone is saying is that the options work correctly, up and until a player has used them all??

And then, it only works half right at that point, meaning if you have a player in the bigs and try to send him down it will correctly require you to have him clear waivers, but if you have a player out of options starting the year in the minors but still on the 40 man roster, it doesn't correctly require THAT player to clear?? Is the essence of the bug?? Would like to make sure I have it straight since it probably isn't fixed in 9, and I want to think about "house rules" or other workarounds.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

but if you have a player out of options starting the year in the minors but still on the 40 man roster, it doesn't correctly require THAT player to clear??

No (eh, see edits), it's only got to do with being sent down from the major to the minors. They're just saying that, even when a player is out of option years, he doesn't have to go through waivers to be sent down.

I find that Neyer explains it well:

"Options"
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

ESPN.com: MLB - Transactions Primer

EDIT: Wait a sec, maybe they are saying that. If they are, then I'm not sure I understand options correctly either.

EDIT2: If they are saying that players already in the minors and out of options need to pass waivers, maybe they can point to something that shows that this is the case?

EDIT3: I guess I can kind of see it now though. If you're on "optional assignment" then you're on the 40 but not the 25 so if you're out of "options" then you shouldn't be allowed to remain on the 40 anymore without clearing waivers. Yeah, that makes sense. Wow, learned something today.

[JTSMOOTH]

And then, it only works half right at that point, meaning if you have a player in the bigs and try to send him down it will correctly require you to have him clear waivers, but if you have a player out of options starting the year in the minors but still on the 40 man roster, it doesn't correctly require THAT player to clear?? Is the essence of the bug?? Would like to make sure I have it straight since it probably isn't fixed in 9, and I want to think about "house rules" or other workarounds.

You got it....The game correctly requires players who are out of options and on a big league roster to be exposed to waivers prior to being sent to the minor leagues...

Where it fails is that a player on the 40 man roster, can run out of optional assignments(options), yet continue to play at the minor league level for as long as the GM sees fit without having to clear waivers. So in OOTP, you can basically ignore options as long as you don't bring the player up to the big leagues.

JT

[JTSMOOTH]

If they are saying that players already in the minors and out of options need to pass waivers, maybe they can point to something that shows that this is the case?

You linked it in your Rob Neyer article...When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

From September through Opening day of the following year, big league rosters are essentially 40 man rosters...

Teams obviously have to cut their roster from 40 to 25 once Opening Day rolls around, so any player who is on the 40 man roster, but does not make the Big League 25 man roster, gets "optioned" to the minor leagues. If the player is out of options, he has to clear waivers in order to be assigned to the minor leagues.

JT

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

You got it....The game correctly requires players who are out of options and on a big league roster to be exposed to waivers prior to being sent to the minor leagues...

Where it fails is that a player on the 40 man roster, can run out of optional assignments(options), yet continue to play at the minor league level for as long as the GM sees fit without having to clear waivers. So in OOTP, you can basically ignore options as long as you don't bring the player up to the big leagues.

JT

OK Thanks. Just one more question and let you be. Are you playing with the Rule V draft disabled??? Put another way, does this bug show up no matter your Rule V settings or does it rear its ugly head ONLY when Rule V is disabled??

And I promise I won't ask no more. I'm still a noob, still learning, and want to have my house rules and workarounds well thought out when I do delve deeper into this thing. Thanks again for replying.

[JTSMOOTH]

OK Thanks. Just one more question and let you be. Are you playing with the Rule V draft disabled??? Put another way, does this bug show up no matter your Rule V settings or does it rear its ugly head ONLY when Rule V is disabled??

In past versions it has occurred with Rule V enabled as well....I can't really speak as to how it works in the forthcoming version(I'm still holding out slight hope that its fixed), but yeah in past versions it occurred with the Rule V draft on.

JT

[kq76]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

From September through Opening day of the following year, big league rosters are essentially 40 man rosters...

Teams obviously have to cut their roster from 40 to 25 once Opening Day rolls around, so any player who is on the 40 man roster, but does not make the Big League 25 man roster, gets "optioned" to the minor leagues. If the player is out of options, he has to clear waivers in order to be assigned to the minor leagues.

Ahh, I like that way of looking at it. Thanks!

Yeah, this does seem rather important to fix, just like the service time still counts while being on the 60 day DL problem that we got fixed only just recently. I guess the reason why I don't recall seeing a huge outcry for this before is: 1) we don't all understand the option rules as well as we might like to think we do and 2) these players stuck in the minors for so long are not the best players out there, but we should keep in mind that they just might be stuck in an organization with a lot of depth at that position whereas they might be more likely to find a position in the bigs in another organization.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

If the player is out of options, he has to clear waivers in order to be assigned to the minor leagues.

JT

What confuses me is why he has to be removed from the 40-man roster (if the way LGO explains it is correct). You would think he could stay there and would just have to clear again if he is brought up and sent down or if he is sent to the minors again the following year.