Great Ideas, Lousy Execution

jbone · 07-18-2006, 11:55 AM

First off, I want to hand it to Marcus for taking the time and having the ambition to expand the borders of ootp and turn it into something that in a lot of ways is really fantastic and very realistic. However, there are some things, especially in the ways that the new ideas are being incorporated, that need to be improved. I know that it takes time to do this type of stuff, but I'm really hoping that it's in ootp2007 if the patches are not enough to take care of it.

1. Draft Pick Compensation - I know this has been covered in another thread, and I support making it realistic like MLB does it.

a. Protect first 15 or so picks of draft.
b. Add in extra picks at ends of rounds.
c. If first round pick is given away, team gets second round pick plus extra pick, and so on.
d. Only US/Canada players.

In other words, make it realistic like MLB does it!

2. International scouting needs to work correctly so that it is realistic as well.

a. Hidden players should only be prospects under the age of 21. No more finding 76/76 superstars while scouting in Latin America. A 17 year-old Albert Pujols? Realistic. Finding a 24 year-old superstar Albert Pujols? It kind of ruins gameplay, if you ask me.
b. Cuba, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan should have players who are commensurate with the quality of play in the leagues - just like FM does it. In FM, you don't see Beckhams and Ronaldinho's playing in India or wherever.
c. In the leagues, winter leagues such as the DR should not contain 70/70 players that are playing for 15 million dollars. It's unrealistic to have a 70/70 player in that league.
d. If you find a hot hidden prospect and don't sign him, an AI team should eventually find him and sign him. I have not seen this happen.
f. Do the AI teams even scout? What are those scouts doing with themselves? Do they even search for hidden players? I have never noticed them signing any. And they should do the vast majority of their scouting in places such a DR, PR, Mex, JPN, etc, not like Trinidad and Tobago or Ghana. Other teams do find these players in FM, how come not ootp?

The draft pick compensation and new scouting are very exciting and fun, now we just need to get the balance right so that I can't take advantage of them to get a leg up on the AI, which makes the game too easy. I know it will take time to do these things, consider that without making it realistic, all the time already put in to these new features is pretty much a waste.

Jamie

Erithtotl · 07-18-2006, 12:06 PM

I agree with your take on international scouting. The lack of age signing limits also makes the problem worse. For example, if I find a great 16 year old talent, I should not be able to sign him until 17, in the meantime, the AI should have a chance to find that player, and then a bidding war will ensue.

bp_ · 07-18-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erithtotl

I agree with your take on international scouting. The lack of age signing limits also makes the problem worse. For example, if I find a great 16 year old talent, I should not be able to sign him until 17, in the meantime, the AI should have a chance to find that player, and then a bidding war will ensue.

Markus said in another thread he was going to work on improving the international scouting.

As for the first suggestion - I'd love to see a more accurate represnetation of free agency compensation. As it is now the feature isn't even worth using.

jbone · 07-18-2006, 05:39 PM

Yeah, an age minimum would be a nice idea as well, a bidding war for a prospect would be fun. Also, signing bonuses for draft choices I think would be great. I'm tempted to turn off compensation, but I guess I figure it's better than no comp at all.
J

Bluenoser · 07-18-2006, 05:48 PM

While I agree with your ideas and that there is room for improvement, I have to disagree with the term "lousy".

Keep in mind this is a brand new game, not the next version of OOTP per se. It's like when Markus started with version 1 of OOTP, each version after added things and improved on others. The same will happen with this "new" game of OOTP. Growing pains are inevitable.

Good suggestions though and I hope you have posted these in the "Suggestions Forum" where they'll catch the eye of the developer and his staff.

Raidergoo · 07-18-2006, 06:00 PM

Lousy is a loaded word.

Your points are pretty spot on.

jarmenia · 07-18-2006, 06:04 PM

Good points JBone, but remember this is just the framework for the future. This games potential is huge.

Man I'm really starting to sound like a fanboy. Markus this game sucks

CHCfan · 07-18-2006, 06:10 PM

My first thought, when I saw the thread title, was that these threads are getting old.

But you explained your opinion well and as a bonus, included suggestions.

jbone · 07-18-2006, 06:29 PM

Okay, lousy is a loaded word and I apologize for that. It was more intended to just catch people's eyes in the title. Perhaps "not very good" would be better, but I'd really like to just focus on these ideas, and it would be great to get some feedback from the Mark or Marcus as to whether they agree or hope to implement these changes anytime soon. I will repost in the suggestions section of this board... though I thought it might hit more eyes in the general section.
J

jarmenia · 07-18-2006, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbone

Okay, lousy is a loaded word and I apologize for that. It was more intended to just catch people's eyes in the title. Perhaps "not very good" would be better, but I'd really like to just focus on these ideas, and it would be great to get some feedback from the Mark or Marcus as to whether they agree or hope to implement these changes anytime soon. I will repost in the suggestions section of this board... though I thought it might hit more eyes in the general section.
J

I'm impressed. Common sense, and willing to follow the procedure for submitting suggestions.

darkenigma510 · 07-18-2006, 07:49 PM

I'm really looking forward to how good scouting CAN be in a few editions once the kinks are worked out.

AllTheBest · 07-18-2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Lousy is a loaded word.

Your points are pretty spot on.

Maybe a mod could change the TITLE of this thread because the post itself is pretty level-headed and doesn't use the word lousy.

"However, there are some things, especially in the ways that the new ideas are being incorporated, that need to be improved."

sovereignstar · 07-18-2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheBest

Maybe a mod could change the TITLE of this thread because the post itself is pretty level-headed and doesn't use the word lousy.

"However, there are some things, especially in the ways that the new ideas are being incorporated, that need to be improved."

Change the title of the thread? Are you kidding? Unless Mussolini is running this board...

Raidergoo · 07-18-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbone

Okay, lousy is a loaded word and I apologize for that.
J

Now your 2-2 with 2 HR and 6 RBI for the day.

I think you summarized my thoughts on two topics far better than I could. I've flagged your 2 main points in Test Track for consideration by Marc and Markus.

jbone · 07-18-2006, 09:06 PM

Thank you for flagging the points for Marc and Markus, it's highly appreciated. If there were some way for it to happen for ootp2006, that would be awesome. I have considered changing the title of the thread, but I'm not sure if I want to succumb to Mussolini...
Jamie

Markus Heinsohn · 07-19-2006, 03:27 AM

Good points

I just coded it so that the first 15 picks of the draft are protected, and also the hidden players are just young talented guys, not established players... also their minimum age has been increased by one

disposableheros · 07-19-2006, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Good points

I just coded it so that the first 15 picks of the draft are protected, and also the hidden players are just young talented guys, not established players... also their minimum age has been increased by one

a lesson for all you whiners and complainers with no substance to your statements!

disposableheros · 07-19-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

....I just coded it so that the first 15 picks of the draft are protected..

what if my draft is only 10 or 12 picks deep?

Syd Thrift · 07-19-2006, 04:08 AM

Yeah, great work getting this into the game, but it really should be the first half of the 1st round, not a set # of picks.

Markus Heinsohn · 07-19-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

what if my draft is only 10 or 12 picks deep?

It takes half the number of teams, in this case, it would be 5 and 6...

07-18-2006, 11:55 AM	#1
jbone Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 156	Great Ideas, Lousy Execution First off, I want to hand it to Marcus for taking the time and having the ambition to expand the borders of ootp and turn it into something that in a lot of ways is really fantastic and very realistic. However, there are some things, especially in the ways that the new ideas are being incorporated, that need to be improved. I know that it takes time to do this type of stuff, but I'm really hoping that it's in ootp2007 if the patches are not enough to take care of it. 1. Draft Pick Compensation - I know this has been covered in another thread, and I support making it realistic like MLB does it. a. Protect first 15 or so picks of draft. b. Add in extra picks at ends of rounds. c. If first round pick is given away, team gets second round pick plus extra pick, and so on. d. Only US/Canada players. In other words, make it realistic like MLB does it! 2. International scouting needs to work correctly so that it is realistic as well. a. Hidden players should only be prospects under the age of 21. No more finding 76/76 superstars while scouting in Latin America. A 17 year-old Albert Pujols? Realistic. Finding a 24 year-old superstar Albert Pujols? It kind of ruins gameplay, if you ask me. b. Cuba, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan should have players who are commensurate with the quality of play in the leagues - just like FM does it. In FM, you don't see Beckhams and Ronaldinho's playing in India or wherever. c. In the leagues, winter leagues such as the DR should not contain 70/70 players that are playing for 15 million dollars. It's unrealistic to have a 70/70 player in that league. d. If you find a hot hidden prospect and don't sign him, an AI team should eventually find him and sign him. I have not seen this happen. f. Do the AI teams even scout? What are those scouts doing with themselves? Do they even search for hidden players? I have never noticed them signing any. And they should do the vast majority of their scouting in places such a DR, PR, Mex, JPN, etc, not like Trinidad and Tobago or Ghana. Other teams do find these players in FM, how come not ootp? The draft pick compensation and new scouting are very exciting and fun, now we just need to get the balance right so that I can't take advantage of them to get a leg up on the AI, which makes the game too easy. I know it will take time to do these things, consider that without making it realistic, all the time already put in to these new features is pretty much a waste. Jamie __________________ "Ain't no use steppin' if you don't step hot" -Roots Manuva

07-18-2006, 05:39 PM	#4
jbone Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 156	Yeah, an age minimum would be a nice idea as well, a bidding war for a prospect would be fun. Also, signing bonuses for draft choices I think would be great. I'm tempted to turn off compensation, but I guess I figure it's better than no comp at all. J __________________ "Ain't no use steppin' if you don't step hot" -Roots Manuva

07-18-2006, 06:04 PM	#7
jarmenia Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa, FL USA Posts: 4,503	Good points JBone, but remember this is just the framework for the future. This games potential is huge. Man I'm really starting to sound like a fanboy. Markus this game sucks __________________ When is good enough, good enough?

07-18-2006, 06:29 PM	#9
jbone Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 156	Okay, lousy is a loaded word and I apologize for that. It was more intended to just catch people's eyes in the title. Perhaps "not very good" would be better, but I'd really like to just focus on these ideas, and it would be great to get some feedback from the Mark or Marcus as to whether they agree or hope to implement these changes anytime soon. I will repost in the suggestions section of this board... though I thought it might hit more eyes in the general section. J __________________ "Ain't no use steppin' if you don't step hot" -Roots Manuva

07-18-2006, 09:06 PM	#15
jbone Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 156	Thank you for flagging the points for Marc and Markus, it's highly appreciated. If there were some way for it to happen for ootp2006, that would be awesome. I have considered changing the title of the thread, but I'm not sure if I want to succumb to Mussolini... Jamie __________________ "Ain't no use steppin' if you don't step hot" -Roots Manuva

07-18-2006, 12:06 PM	#2
Erithtotl Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 330	I agree with your take on international scouting. The lack of age signing limits also makes the problem worse. For example, if I find a great 16 year old talent, I should not be able to sign him until 17, in the meantime, the AI should have a chance to find that player, and then a bidding war will ensue.

07-18-2006, 05:48 PM	#5
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,521	While I agree with your ideas and that there is room for improvement, I have to disagree with the term "lousy". Keep in mind this is a brand new game, not the next version of OOTP per se. It's like when Markus started with version 1 of OOTP, each version after added things and improved on others. The same will happen with this "new" game of OOTP. Growing pains are inevitable. Good suggestions though and I hope you have posted these in the "Suggestions Forum" where they'll catch the eye of the developer and his staff.

07-18-2006, 06:00 PM	#6
Raidergoo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 9,005	Lousy is a loaded word. Your points are pretty spot on.

07-18-2006, 06:10 PM	#8
CHCfan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grand Island, NE Posts: 1,117	My first thought, when I saw the thread title, was that these threads are getting old. But you explained your opinion well and as a bonus, included suggestions.

07-18-2006, 07:49 PM	#11
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	I'm really looking forward to how good scouting CAN be in a few editions once the kinks are worked out.

07-19-2006, 03:27 AM	#16
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	Good points I just coded it so that the first 15 picks of the draft are protected, and also the hidden players are just young talented guys, not established players... also their minimum age has been increased by one