2025 NBA Off Season thread

[Cobra Mgr]

Celtics trade Jrue Holiday to Blazers for Anfernee Simmons & 2 2nd rd draft picks.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Celtics trade Jrue Holiday to Blazers for Anfernee Simmons & 2 2nd rd draft picks.

This article gives the Celtics an A for the trade (shedding big salary for a player beginning to decline) and the Trail Blazers C- (now overpaying said player in a "win now" move while giving up a young star with room to grow).

[Cobra Mgr]

I think what Jrue brings isn't tangible. He is a team first guy who plays hard nosed D & carries 2 rings as his certification. Valuable if you are trying to teach a young squad the nuances of winning.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I think what Jrue brings isn't tangible. He is a team first guy who plays hard nosed D & carries 2 rings as his certification. Valuable if you are trying to teach a young squad the nuances of winning.

True about Jrue, but it comes at a hefty price, $72 million over two years. He has to be better-than-average productive to fully justify this trade.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

True about Jrue, but it comes at a hefty price, $72 million over two years. He has to be better-than-average productive to fully justify this trade.

The NBA pays guys 8 figures just to be a body in practices. The $ is only a concern if it prevents you from making moves. True, no one wants to overpay for anybody. But there aren't many guys that has what he has and is available. No one of Holiday's stature is going to Portland in this stage of their career. They are either chasing rings or the highest salary possible. So given supply & demand, I don't think Portland is sweating the price tag.

[Cobra Mgr]

Gil's Arena - Roundtable on SAS' comments on Memphis

[Cobra Mgr]

Porzingis to ATL & the worst C's 2026 2nd rd pick. Boston gets Georges Niang & Clev's 2nd rd pick from ATL. Brooklyn gets Terrance Mann & ATL's 20251st rd.

You gotta think the Nix HAVE to win the East next season at this point. Boston is downsizing w/o Tatum. Indy won't have Tyrese. And the Bux won't have Lillaird & maybe Giannis. The only East top 12 or so teams would be NYK & the Cavs

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

This article gives the Celtics an A for the trade (shedding big salary for a player beginning to decline) and the Trail Blazers C- (now overpaying said player in a "win now" move while giving up a young star with room to grow).

What could solidify the C+ grade (or worse) for the Blazers is that, reportedly, Jrue is not happy at all with being sent to Portland. Understandable, as he just came off multiple years of playing on teams that were title contenders (winning two) and he knows that he's slowing down but still has plenty to offer. Although the Blazers are on the upswing, Jrue is not winning a title there while he's still a productive player.

Being the classy pro that he is he'll most likely do what he has to do, but it would not be surprising to see him engineer a move elsewhere, to a contender.

As for the Celtics, after the Jrue & KP trades they have gotten under the 2nd apron and are just $8m away from getting under the 1st apron - which would give them much more roster-building flexibility. I would not be surprised to see another trade to move up in the draft. Next season - with Tatum out and no chance at a title but still the talent to win 48-50 games - would be an ideal one to have a promising rookie get more minutes than he normally would, with the idea being that he'd be groomed to be a solid contributer on a title-aspring 2026-27 team with Tatum and Brown.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

This article gives the Celtics an A for the trade (shedding big salary for a player beginning to decline) and the Trail Blazers C- (now overpaying said player in a "win now" move while giving up a young star with room to grow).

I've finally come to the realization (long past due, I'll admit!) that these sports news sites too often come up with controversial grades or rankings just to get engagement, to get people to talk and share the stories to drive more traffic to the site.

I think it's a meh deal for both sides. Jrue is a still serviceable defense-first veteran, but his value is only likely to go down over the contract's life as it's a pretty hefty one. Simons is, just not that great of a player. He has some value as a 3-point shooter, but that's really about all he brings and even that he's not great at. Here's a stat comparison. He's also on a 27.7M expiring deal while Jrue is still due 100 over 3. If I were to grade the deal I'd say it's somewhere around a B- for both, but a B- for both probably sounds boring so sure, let's say it's a great deal for one team and a terrible deal for the other!

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by kq76

I've finally come to the realization (long past due, I'll admit!) that these sports news sites too often come up with controversial grades or rankings just to get engagement, to get people to talk and share the stories to drive more traffic to the site.

I think it's a meh deal for both sides. Jrue is a still serviceable defense-first veteran, but his value is only likely to go down over the contract's life as it's a pretty hefty one. Simons is, just not that great of a player. He has some value as a 3-point shooter, but that's really about all he brings and even that he's not great at. Here's a stat comparison. He's also on a 27.7M expiring deal while Jrue is still due 100 over 3. If I were to grade the deal I'd say it's somewhere around a B- for both, but a B- for both probably sounds boring so sure, let's say it's a great deal for one team and a terrible deal for the other!

Jrue. I mean, true. Everything on CBS Sports, ESPN, and The Athletic as well as other sports news web sites should be taken with a grain of salt. We should not make the mistake of taking someone's opinion as the final word on any topic because, let's face it, some of those bloviators are no better informed than many of us.

Well, here is a resolution: Unless I am doing it to stir up (pleasant) controversy here, or to buttress a point that I am trying to make, I am going to avoid linking to opinion and "survey" articles on those sites. Because, I think you are entirely correct; much of that stuff is click bait being written by people concerned about their employment.

[kq76]

Oh, post them if you want. I don't care. This place could do with more posts. I just felt like pointing out we shouldn't read too much into these sites' grades and rankings.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

J

Well, here is a resolution: Unless I am doing it to stir up (pleasant) controversy here, or to buttress a point that I am trying to make, I am going to avoid linking to opinion and "survey" articles on those sites. Because, I think you are entirely correct; much of that stuff is click bait being written by people concerned about their employment.

Nah. Post away.

[Déjà Bru]

Well, okay then.

[LD84]

It has far less to do with the players involved, and way more to do with injuries, expectations and most importantly, the salary cap and luxury tax.

[Déjà Bru]

2025 NBA Draft: What Jalen Brunson and the Knicks have to do with this year's odd number of picks

Only 59 picks will be made in this draft, as opposed to the typical 60

It has to do with the Brunson signing back in 2022. Somebody opened their yap a bit too soon.

The article takes the stance that it's worth it, because "With Brunson in town, the Knicks have won more playoff series (4) in three years than they did in the 22 years combined (1) before he arrived". Well, of course, if that is what it took to land Brunson. But somehow I believe it was inept management at the time.

"While you never know what kind of gem might be available late on Thursday, missing out on the 56th overall pick has probably been worth it for New York." Yeah, you never know.

[kq76]

So what do you all think of the players your teams picked in the draft?

I'm pretty happy the Raptors picked CMB. I'm more just happy they didn't pick Maluach or Essengue both of whom I think are going to be busts, but a lot of Raptors fans were hoping for. I'm a little concerned that CMB is too much like a lesser Scottie Barnes, but I can't help but really like all the skills he brings (defense, high IQ, physicality, passing). And who knows, maybe Barnes will be traded.

I think the Spurs made out like bandits. Harper and Bryant? Wow. I thought the Raptors were drafting a bit too high to go for Bryant, but good on the Spurs!

Like the Spurs with Bryant, I really liked Memphis's pick of Coward. I also thought he might be a good Raptor pick, but maybe just too high for him as well.

And the third guy I was kind of eyeing for the Raptors was Beringer. But he landed at an absolutely great spot for him to learn from Gobert so good for him!

Miami got the steal of the draft, again. It'll probably come out eventually, but I have no idea how Jakucionis fell to them. We should keep a record of which team gets the steal of the draft and then of course re-evaluate it 10 years later.

Portland of course had the biggest "what the...?!" of the draft. Like seriously, I joke, but did they think it was already day 2? They had to have known they could very likely have gotten him with a cheap 2nd rd pick. Maybe it really was just about selling more jerseys.

Brooklyn also had a very perplexing draft. 5 1st rd picks and you don't consolidate any of them into higher picks? Maybe they tried and couldn't. But it's not just that, they drafted a bunch of players a lot of mock drafters were low on. 4 of the 5 were projected by most to go in the 2nd rd. I can understand just trusting your scouts, but was there really not players you liked more that were projected to go higher? Lucky for the rest of the teams, plenty of players fell because of Brooklyn.

And the Pelicans? Man, they had so much promise a few years ago when Zion was drafted. But now, with the trades they've made, the organization just looks braindead. Sorry Pelicans fans. I guess you'll just have to wait until this management team turns over again. And like many, I like Queen, I just don't like the Pelicans right now.

Charlotte OTOH looks like they might actually be turning things around. I really like that they selected both Kon and Liam. Now if they can just get rid of LaMelo.

Anyway, I thought this was one of the most intriguing drafts we've seen in a while for a variety of reasons. I alluded to some above, but another is at the lottery you might think, "oh, that sucks, we fell", but when you get to the draft players also fall and sometimes you get a player you would have loved to have picked before the lottery was even drawn. Like CMB with the Raptors. I'm sure there were probably 3 or 4 players they would have picked before him, but I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he was 4th or 5th on their board overall. And I'm sure that's true for a number of teams. It's just unfortunate to think that, while a lot of these players may look good now, you just know a lot of them won't pan out. Well, good luck to them!

[Cobra Mgr]

I don't have a team...........

I think since Dallas picked up Flagg, they missed an opportunity to set themselves up in the short or long run. Kyrie & AD are too injury prone to bank on them being healthy for a long playoff run. But if you are going to keep them, then you are in "win now" mode. Trade the Flagg pick to a team looking to rebuild & get a vet that helps you do just that.

But if you want to stick w/Cooper, then send Kyrie/AD off to a team looking to add that final piece & get their draft capital. Dallas will never have a problem w/getting a FA or 2 when the time comes for a Flagg led team to get the trophy.

I think the Mavs tried to have their cake & eat it too & will end up getting neither.

Utah selecting Bailey was silly. This was a kid who was committed to landing where he wanted to. DO you really think in 4 years he will be committed to staying in Salt Lake City?

One final thing. Lot of online talk about how dook has a ton of lottery picks over the last decade while UNC has zero. They are suggesting dook is developing players better. 1st, look at the draft this year. UNC isn't the only blue blood not sending picks early to the NBA. I see no one from Kansas. Kentucky is missing. UCLA absent. One from UConn & Mich St.

Point is, college basketball has changed. Having banners in the rafters means nothing to this generation.

Also, dook is sending a bunch of one & dones. I don't know how durm, NC can claim to be developing players that would have been 1st round picks if HS players could avoid going to college.

Lastly, I don't know how dense you have to be to believe dook got all of those lottery picks legit. koach k spent the 1st 2/3rds of his career going for 4 year players. And then did a 180 & started going after one & dones. And somehow, with every other school trying to land these same players (including Shady Calipari) he became the best in the nation in luring them to durm, NC. One year, he got the 3 best players in the nation EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL PLAYED THE SAME POSITION. Do you really think k accomplished that w/his magnetic personality?

[Déjà Bru]

The following is based on this: 2025 NBA Draft grades. Click through to see his explanations. I took his grades and applied some mathematical processes.

First, I laid out all 59 picks on a spreadsheet:



As you can see, for each grade, I applied the system for grade point averages used by educational institutions:



Then I created a pivot table based on the number of points earned. For example, with their two picks, both graded "A", the San Antonio Spurs received 8 points:



Next, I made a pivot table for the number of picks per team:



The pivot tables fed this summary page in which the teams are ranked alphabetically, by total points, and by average points:



So, if you accept all of these premises, the Brooklyn Nets edged out the Charlotte Hornets for TOTAL VALUE in the draft, based on total points earned. The New York Knicks were last.

However, for maximizing their picks according to AVERAGE VALUE, the Dallas Mavericks, Miami Heat, and San Antonio Spurs all aced their picks. The Spurs were probably the most impressive, drawing the 4.000 on two picks, not one. The Knicks, of course, were last.

Interestingly, the Charlotte Hornets were the only team to receive an A+ grade on one of their picks. Unfortunately for them, their other three picks dragged their average points per pick down to 3.417.

NOTES:

1) As mentioned in a previous post, the forlorn Knicks lost a second round draft pick due to some irregularity over the Jalen Brunson free agent signing. Hence only 59 draft picks instead of the usual 60.

2) Only 28 teams are listed because two teams had no draft picks at all:

- Denver Nuggets, whose first-round pick belonged to the Orlando Magic, representing the final piece of the 2021 blockbuster trade for starting power forward Aaron Gordon, and the Nuggets’ second-round pick was traded to Charlotte last summer in a move designed to shed the salary of former point guard Reggie Jackson

- Houston Rockets, who gave up the 10th pick to the Suns as part of the recent Kevin Durant trade and the 59th pick to the Grizzlies in some complicated deal involving the Warriors and Suns, also associated with Durant, I believe.

[kq76]

Okay, that's intense. Now do it for 4 more draft graders. :P

As your SS shows, Brooklyn may have had the best ttl value, but their average value (2.8) was below the overall average value (3.1). I wouldn't be surprised if not a single one pans out. Wolf might have the best shot and they drafted him last.

Charlotte did great, no doubt about it. They must have been thrilled with Kalkbrenner falling to them in rd 2!

That's a neat exercise, especially when you focus on the average value. Yeah, it's only 1 guy's opinion (the grader's), but it's still neat. And I agree with every team Charlotte and above in the average value ranking.

The only thing I'd maybe do differently is weight the higher picks more because there's more opportunity cost being wrong with them than there is being wrong on a 2nd rd pick. But how much to weigh them I'd have no idea. For example, I love the Wizards 6th overall pick of Tre Johnson and who cares about the D grade on the 43rd pick.

My biggest criticism of that guy's grades is I don't know how you can really give a D grade to anyone in the 2nd rd. In the first, sure, but not the second. Looking at past drafts, very few pan out. So as long as you're not drafting someone short and fat who's never held a basketball in their hands before, everybody should probably be at least a C.

[Déjà Bru]

It's not a sign of senility. Rather, it's a manifestation of the persistence of memory.

The New York Times often uses a different link headline on its main page than the article on The Athletic. Today, I saw this:



Immediately, my mind leapt to "Wow, maybe he signed with Flagg Brothers. That would be something!"

Um, no. According to this, Flagg Brothers, a nationwide chain of shoe stores and as a catalogue for men’s clothing, ceased operations in the early 1980s.

I will not bother linking to the article or, as I usually do with stuff from The Athletic, reproducing it here because it's boring. The only remarkable thing in the article is that three companies, Nike, Adidas and New Balance, all wanted to have Flagg as their corporate shoeperson. When he was 17 and had not even played any collegiate basketball yet.

In May of 2024, the three companies came to a presentation at a hotel in Los Angeles to make their pitches. New Balance stooped to this:

[New Balance marketing director] and his team entered a separate conference room where Flagg, his family and his Creative Artists Agency (CAA) team waited to be wowed. [The marketing director] wasted no time playing the high notes. He reminded the Flaggs how every summer they used to attend a tent sale at New Balance’s factory in Skowhegan, Maine — a half-hour drive from Flagg’s hometown — and pick out sneakers for the upcoming school year. (Kelly, Flagg’s mother, even remembers doing the same when she was a little girl.) [He] stressed how important New England was to New Balance, which is based in Boston, as well as the Flagg family.

Suddenly, a video started playing of the Skowhegan factory, countless assembly lines within it and the process of a custom pair of basketball shoes being made. At one point, the father of one of Flagg’s former grassroots teammates — who still works at the facility — made an appearance. Then another worker shortly thereafter, proudly proclaiming that, “Cooper Flagg being from Maine and being the basketball prodigy that he is, it just gives you that sense of pride.” Eventually, the 53-second clip ended with a still shot of the gray shoes, with “FLAGG” stitched directly onto the tongue.

All of this over a 17-year-old who belonged in high school.

Does anybody else remember Flagg Brothers shoes? No? Okay, never mind.