Rocky Marciano (009032)

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[Jim_Kidd]

The Rock stopped quite a few large heavyweights during his career - not feasting off of a bunch of old timers and 190 lb. stiffs as some have suggested over the years. During the filming of the computer fight with Muhammad Ali, I once read that things got a little heated and the "Rock" actually landed a little bit of leather.

Muhammad Ali said that he was shocked by the power he felt from the "Older, retired" Marciano. And that was 15 years after Rocky's last fight. Not that Rocky would have beaten Ali - both being in their prime. But I really think the Rock would have given anyone a good fight - regardless of size. Stylewise, Foreman may have done the same thing to Rocky as he did to Frazier (twice) but that's an exception, not the rule.

Jim Kidd

Jim,

How do you think a prime Rocky would have done against the HW champs that came after him?

Here's my opinion.

Patterson - Rocky in 5
Johansson - Rocky in 3
Liston - A tough one - could go either way. If (a big if) Rocky survives the first 5 rounds, Rocky will win by KO.
Ali - Ali wins by decision.
Frazier - Another tough one. Rocky 60% of the time.
Foreman - Similar to Liston.
Leon Spinks - Rocky in 3
Holmes - Tough match up for Rocky - Holmes by decision.
Mike Spinks - Rocky by decision or late KO
Tyson - Tyson by early KO - there's no way Rocky can win against a prime Tyson.
Douglas - The Douglas who beat Tyson could also beat Rocky. The Douglas who lost to Holyfield wouldn't stand a chance against Rocky.
Holyfield - A great fight - pick em.
Bowe - Bowe by KO
Lewis - Lewis probably by KO but with Lewis's chin, Rocky could get lucky.

[Rondo_GE]

Originally Posted by 60'sfan

Jim,

How do you think a prime Rocky would have done against the HW champs that came after him?

Here's my opinion.

Patterson - Rocky in 5
Johansson - Rocky in 3
Liston - A tough one - could go either way. If (a big if) Rocky survives the first 5 rounds, Rocky will win by KO.
Ali - Ali wins by decision.
Frazier - Another tough one. Rocky 60% of the time.
Foreman - Similar to Liston.
Leon Spinks - Rocky in 3
Holmes - Tough match up for Rocky - Holmes by decision.
Mike Spinks - Rocky by decision or late KO
Tyson - Tyson by early KO - there's no way Rocky can win against a prime Tyson.
Douglas - The Douglas who beat Tyson could also beat Rocky. The Douglas who lost to Holyfield wouldn't stand a chance against Rocky.
Holyfield - A great fight - pick em.
Bowe - Bowe by KO
Lewis - Lewis probably by KO but with Lewis's chin, Rocky could get lucky.

You left out Ken Norton a brief but very capable champ plus Greg Page, Mike Weaver, etc etc...

If played on computer or from a purely physical or stylistic standpoint I might be inclined to agree with most of these assessments.

However.

What makes Marciano special is nothing in his physical arsenal. There were, I believe, fighters who could withstand more punishment and fighters who hit harder. Physically he was incredibly handicapped as a heavyweight and although his reflexes were much faster than people give him credit for he would was not even remotely "slick".

What made Marciano special is that he has to be the most determined fighter to ever fight in the heavyweight division, and perhaps in any division. Here is a man who nearly had his nose ripped from his face and came back to win the next round. Unfortunately the game does not specifically simulate determination.

So while many of these fighters you listed on paper might seem to be able to dominate him, many of them, like Liston and Tyson, had very fragile psyche's. As fearsome as both men were I believe they would have been up against a fighter who was simply not afraid of them.

I also believe "young George Foremen" would fair no better, although "old George" would do far better.

So among the fighters you listed only these guys, fighters of great determination, I think had a chance of beating him...

Mahuhammid Ali
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Joe frazier

(and perhaps old George but not young George)

I don't even think Buster Douglas, the night he beat Tyson, would have faired well because unlike Tyson Marciano would not have become discouraged from Douglas's defensive mauling. He would have continued to throw punches, and continued to land, espcially to the body and arms that Douglas needed in his attempt to control him.

When it comes to boxing physical dimensions are very important (or they wouldn't have weight classes). However, we see how men like Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson could overcome much bigger men by being savagely aggressive and having a big punch.

But Marciano was that, and much more.

My two pennies.

[Jim_Kidd]

I think Rocky would have done the following against the Heavyweight champs who followed him:

Patterson: KO (mid rounds)
Johansson: KO (within 2 rounds)
Liston: TKO by (late rounds, I think Liston was one of the more underrated champs in history)
Ali L15 (close decision, or possibly a close decision for Marciano depending upon what style the judges liked)
Frazier KO (early rounds. Frazier, a slow starter, would exit early as he did against Foreman and almost did against Oscar Bonevena).
Foreman KO by 4 (Foreman's early round assault puts Rocky down multiple times before the ref stops the match). If Rocky somehow survives... who knows?
Leon Spinks KO (another early round stoppage for the Rock)
Ken Norton TKO (Mid-rounds stoppage. Rocky's style would be all wrong for Norton)
Larry Holmes L15 (Holmes with a hard fought decision - close). I could see Rocky winning a decision, too. It would be close. Norton took Holmes to the edge... Rocky could succeed where Norton failed.
Michael Spinks KO (within 5 rounds)
Mike Tyson KO by (early rounds)(a prime Tyson only succumbs to the best of the best - and maybe Foreman and Liston - based upon size and style. Tyson's blend of speed and power were awesome in his prime.
Evander Holyfield W15 (great fight with Marciano being tougher to hit cleanly with combinations than Holyfield thought).
Bowe W15 (I see Rocky's body attack dropping Bowe's punch output after the 5th. Rocky would have to survive some "rocky" moments before his body attack discouraged Bowe from seeking a knockout)
Lewis L15 (Of course the Rock could land a one-punch KO shot... but I see Lewis' jab and careful choice in taking chances causing him to come away with a decision.

Jim

Originally Posted by 60'sfan

Jim,

How do you think a prime Rocky would have done against the HW champs that came after him?

Here's my opinion.

Patterson - Rocky in 5
Johansson - Rocky in 3
Liston - A tough one - could go either way. If (a big if) Rocky survives the first 5 rounds, Rocky will win by KO.
Ali - Ali wins by decision.
Frazier - Another tough one. Rocky 60% of the time.
Foreman - Similar to Liston.
Leon Spinks - Rocky in 3
Holmes - Tough match up for Rocky - Holmes by decision.
Mike Spinks - Rocky by decision or late KO
Tyson - Tyson by early KO - there's no way Rocky can win against a prime Tyson.
Douglas - The Douglas who beat Tyson could also beat Rocky. The Douglas who lost to Holyfield wouldn't stand a chance against Rocky.
Holyfield - A great fight - pick em.
Bowe - Bowe by KO
Lewis - Lewis probably by KO but with Lewis's chin, Rocky could get lucky.

[Mad Bomber]

During the filming of their computer fight Ali was having trouble catching Marciano with his jab, and he picked off his toupee.
Marciano told Ali that if he did that again he might do something, and so Ali did it again, and Marciano dropped him with a body shot, and Ali stayed down for almost five minutes.

Greg

Ring Magazine article early 70's.

[HomicideHenry]

I take into consideration alot of things, and not just by records. Alot of people universally consider THE best HW champion to either be Ali or Louis. But I have read an article that quoted Joe Louis as saying that his greatest weakness was being crowded, and he said that even in his prime he didn't think he could have ever beaten Rocky.

Muhammad Ali was dropped by a body shot from the 45 year old Marciano who hadn't fought in 15 years. Ali said he was astonished by how hard it was to hit Marciano with a solid shot, and even asked for extra money because of the tremendous body shots he took during filming of the computer fight with Marciano in 1969.

Remember the general idea for the computer fight was that body shots could be thrown for real, but head shots were to be pulled. Ali was once quoted as saying that he couldn't imagine a prime Marciano, because even at 45 Rocky was so strong.

In an ironic sense the computer was right in picking the style of Marciano to beat Ali, as when Ali fought Frazier he had his first loss, and oddly enough was dropped by a left hook in the 15th, which was the same punch that Marciano threw to 'KO' Ali in the computer fight.

Alot of people say that Frazier could have beaten Marciano, but alot of people don't take into consideration that, even though Joe did fight like Marciano, he was too aggressive, which left him open for shots. And Joe really only had power in his left hook, as Marciano had power in both.

What alot of people fail to consider is that Rocky was under-rated defensively, because though it looked like he was taking alot of punishment, ask guys like Roland LaStarza who were as technically superior as anyone else in that era, that Marciano was alot harder to hit than thought.

I think Marciano could have pretty much beaten the majority of the HW champions, past and present. His conditioning was above and beyond anyone in the history of the game, his determination was second to none. If he was fighting a 15 round fight, he would train as if the fight was going to be scheduled for 45 rounds, he trained like the old bare-knuckle fighters.

Also, alot of people say he was too small. No. Marciano's actual weight was around 200+ pounds, he trained DOWN to that weight and condition, he was solid as a rock; Joe Louis once said that even bumping into Marciano hurt.

The only man that's hard for me to see Marciano beating is George Foreman, but then again, Marciano wasn't Joe Frazier. Marciano was more defensive, he had unparallel determination, uncanny power in both hands and unmeasurable endurance, as well as having an odd style.

If Marciano could get passed the first few rounds, I think he could have beaten Foreman, because George [then] was mentally weak, and anyone who could show him up made George break down inside. George was also a sloppy fighter and Ali showed that his endurance wasn't that great.

George also would swing wild shots, bringing them back and swopping them around in huge circular motion...Marciano would have ducked down incredibly low, pounced and tear into Foreman's body with non-stop punches. Marciano threw short hooks with all his body weight behind them, the shorter the hooks the greater the velocity.

Same with Sonny Liston, though beating Liston would be more mental than a physical one, since Liston was more proficient skill wise.

In my mind Rocky is the best, but then again, that's more faith than actual fact. I have done my own tournament and Marciano and Ali were the final two with Joe Louis being third, but computer or not, I don't think anyone can really measure how big his heart was.

Rocky would rather have died trying in the ring than to kick up his heels and slow up, give up or shut down.

[HomicideHenry]

I also want to point out that altough many have the false misconception that Rocky fought a bunch of set-ups to get his title shot, this was certainly not the case. Almost from the beginning he was thrown in with men with more professional experience than himself. He could have lost at any time in his career, but he didn't.

I recall one time someone told Marciano that he was going up against a man who had over 15 professional bouts and Marciano at the time only had 3, to which The Rock replied "Don't you ever tell me how good the other man is, I have to believe I am going to win every time out!"

That's pure faith, will and determination there.

I think, as accurate as the TITLE BOUT simulator is, that it somewhat doesn't do Marciano any justice in the department of desire and determination, considering TITLE BOUT only really figures in on power, speed etc.

Marciano did have enormous amount of strength, an uncanny ability to absorb punishment as well as an under-rated ability to get inside without taking too many shots. But what made Marciano unbeatable was his belief in himself, and he only had one goal in mind, to destroy the other man in front of him.

When Rocky was an amatuer he lost a controversial decision to Cookie Wallace, and after the fact Rocky said to his closest friends and family "I will never let another fight go the distance, and be left in the hands of the judges." He trained even harder, to the point where he had the endurance to punch non-stop for 15 rounds easy, having a level of stamina that would have lasted for 20, 30, 40 rounds.

I know I'm making him sound like Superman, Marciano wasn't perfect, but by the time he fought Archie Moore he has his defense and bobbing and weaving skills down to a science. Moore went down over 5 times, and this was a man who would hold on to the LHW title for another decade.

What Rocky did was he skipped the middle division and went straight after the bigger names, beating them all. Ask virtually any man he ever fought, and they will say that Marciano had more endurance, stamina, power and determination than anyone back then.

I recall how a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Marciano once said, that Marciano hit harder with one punch than Joe did with four. Walcott even said this as well. Carmin Basilio was once quoted as saying "He would look like a midget if he fought the guys of today, but he'd knock them all out."

Many often criticise Marciano for not facing big men or even men of a puncher style. Both are untrue. Marciano was only 5'10" and 187 pounds, virtually everyone he faced outweighed him or was taller. The largest of his opponents stood 6'5" and 250 pounds, whom he dispatched of. If one is to criticise Marciano for not facing men of punching ability, then they must also criticise many others who never fought people who were on equal ground with them.

Marciano did face Rex Layne, who was a noted puncher and whom many believed would defeat Rocky and be the next champion, and knocked Layne out. He also knocked out Joe Louis [who was then the #1 contender for Ezzard Charles title]. He also knocked out Harry Kid Matthews who had a high kayo percentage.

Mind you, Rocky Marciano has a higher kayo percentage than Frazier, Foreman, Jefferies, Dempsey at 88% with Foreman just behind him at 87%.

WIth all that being said, I think TITLE BOUT should really consider making Marciano a tad bit better than what the computer says, because though computers can be accurate, a machine can't determine the measurement of the heart and the human spirit. He had that in aces.

[lethal liberal]

Although I would never underestimate Rocky,and how anyone can say the guy isnt in the top 5 of all time is beyond me. Sure,guys like Ali,Holmes and Foreman would have been too much for Rock. However,aside from those three,I think he has a good shot against anyone. I think he would blast Lewis out in a hurry. Just my opinion,but I dont think Lewis is a top 10 all-time guy. As for Tyson,when ranking fighters on an all-time basis,I think you have to take everything into consideration..the entire career,and Rocky is unequaled in that respect. That being said,in a fight between the two with both in their prime..I think it would have been an absolute fury. Sort of Hearns/Hagler the heavyweight version. It may have simply come down to who landed the first shot flush. Rocky had the better chin,but Tyson was much faster. Great matchup. My top 5 all-time heavyweights.
1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Louis
4)Foreman
5) Marciano

[CONN CHRIS]

A Cowboys fan and a guy who values Holmes as highly as I do.

You're a good man.

[Cap]

Marciano was only 5' 10" maybe 5' 10 1/2" and he would've made mincemeat of that big bum Holmes. Larry Holmes should've lost the decision against Ken Norton. The guys he did beat while title-holder were a bunch of the least-talented heavyweights in the history of the division: Leon Spinks, Evangelista, Ocasio, Weaver, Shavers, Ledoux, Zanon, Jones, etc. Imagine losing his title to a light-heavyweight? A guy that lasted less than a round against Tyson.

Cap

[Syd Thrift]

Sorry to bring up a dead horse, but...

Rocky was a great fighter, no doubt. He almost lost to Jersey Joe Walcott, who was a pretty good fighter but not somebody rated as a top 10 by anybody I know. Marciano no doubt got better as his career went on but the Walcott fight in particular demonstrated that good defensive, tricky fighters could give him trouble. Given that, I think he loses to Ali and Lennox Lewis for sure (unless he catches Lewis like he did Walcott - Lewis is vulnerable exactly the same way, maybe even moreso). Marciano - Tyson would be a fantastic fight; whoever won would only do so after multiple knockdowns on either side.

One note about that computer fight anecdote: I think George Foreman in particular but also guys like Bernard Hopkins have demonstrated that unlike other sports you can keep a lot of the ability that you had in your prime until you get pretty up there in years. In particular, I'm not sure it could be said that Rocky lost *any* punching power from 1956 to 1968. The biggest thing Foreman still had during his comeback - some might say the only thing if they only watched that Holyfield bout - were his fists. As for Rocky... he had apparently taken the computer fight very seriously and had trained himself back into decent shape for the thing. On Ali's side, asking him to pull head punches is in a sense taking away his jab, which is like asking Rocky not to follow with his elbow after a hook.

It would have been really, really interesting if Rocky would have survived the plane crash and decided to box again. I think he would have done pretty well, although he would have most certainly spoiled his perfect record.

[Brooks TVB]

I personally feel Marciano was top 3 not just top 5 all time. I've watched some of his fights and nobody kept coming the way he did. He stalked guys all the way around the ring.

Honestly, you just can't compare fighters of yesteryear to todays fighters. Today we have much better training equipment and the guys are so much larger today than then. The fights are also shorter by round. Also, if I am not mistaken we use much heavier gloves today than they used in older days.

[Ric915]

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

I personally feel Marciano was top 3 not just top 5 all time. I've watched some of his fights and nobody kept coming the way he did. He stalked guys all the way around the ring.

Honestly, you just can't compare fighters of yesteryear to todays fighters. Today we have much better training equipment and the guys are so much larger today than then. The fights are also shorter by round. Also, if I am not mistaken we use much heavier gloves today than they used in older days.

Even without the better equipment the fighters of yester year were better conditioned then alot of the fighters today. In general the old time fighters were alot tougher then most guys fighting today. You are correct that todays fighters are bigger and stronger but really don't think they could stand up to the punishment the old time guys endured.

[mmpepsi67]

Hey, anyone know about any fights with rocky marciano on dec.12, 1953. I have a ticket stub for that day. Thanks

[Jersey-Jim]

Watching replays of Marciano fights are real eye openers. The volume of punches and pressure that he applied seemed unhuman at times! I remember the first time I watched one of this fights, I starting laughing because it didn't seem real that someone could keep coming and keep punching the way he did. He seemed to get 2nd, 3rd and 4th winds! Although I was watching the fight by myself, I felt the urge to turn to someone sitting next to me and saying - "Do you see that? Marciano's an animal in there!"

[Beno999]

Rocky Marciano is my favourite Heavyweight, hes got the same chin as antonio margarito has got! descendant due to lots of mexican breeding down the years anyone?????????????????? hahaha :P

[professordp]

Originally Posted by Beno999

Rocky Marciano is my favourite Heavyweight, hes got the same chin as antonio margarito has got! descendant due to lots of mexican breeding down the years anyone?????????????????? hahaha :P

If you have not yet had a chance, take a look at Dean's revision of Rocky in his Ratings of the Day Council thread. Pretty interesting!

[Beno999]

Whats the link to that thread prof? not sure where abouts it is.

[professordp]

You can find it in the "Mods" section. Since you're a big Rocky fan, I'd love to read your comments on Dean's revision. I'm certain Dean would appreciate your input as well.