OOTP's bugs are driving me crazy!

[hefalumps]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Its not flawless Im after. Its fixing common gripes Im after. Our OOTP online league is on the verge of collapse with all these 2016 bugs started popping up. Injuries killing players careers. Financials completely out of wack. Check out this box score

MLB Box Scores, Houston Astros at Arizona Diamondbacks, 05-10-2016

Yes Guerra my mop up guy throws 15 pitches. Guettierez had 3 days off prior and should have thrown 60-70 pitches but the game decides it would be better to throw my closer for 3 innings. People may think this crap is minor but I consider it a "fatal flaw"

Its gotta be bad for business when very few of the participants in our 32 person on-line want to upgrade because most dont want to be introduced to a new pile of bugs.

I too have noticed issues with the way AI decides to use relievers. I play out all my games, but I have the AI manage my minor leagues. Granted I have a pretty full bullpen at AAA (9 MRs and 1 CL), but about 75% are hardly ever used. I check their stats and they've thrown under 10 IP all year and it's almost July. My closer has way more innings than any MR. I only have two actual starters in my rotation, so maybe I have some amazing inning-eating ghost SPs who are throwing complete games every time out. I don't notice it with the AI managing major league teams - at least in the games I play out the opposing bullpen usage doesn't jump out as wrong. Haven't bothered checking box scores of simmed games between AI opponents - maybe I should.

Someone who sims out their games reported that the AI was never using the pitchers they slotted in the 1 and 2 "Reliever" slots in their pitching chart - it would only use the 3 and 4 slots. He had to keep rotating who he put in the 3 and 4 slots to get the AI to use all four of his MR consistently. Haven't seen this one since I play out all games, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Unfortunately some of these bugs of the more inconsistent and unpredictable nature will take longer to track down. If it's not happening to everyone, then it's likely some combination of game settings that could be contributing to the problem.

Case in point - a few versions back there was a bug affecting some people that would case OOTP to crash to desktop if their pitcher was injured in the final out of an inning and you tried to bring in a substitute pitcher. Markus had a heck of a time tracking it down, and when he finally did, it turned out to be related to either the "Use of relievers" or "Use of closers" strategy setting in the League Setup page. Depending on what you had there, the bug would cause the game to crash on the injury. Players who didn't have "Use of relievers/closers" set to that specific setting didn't see the crash, so it only affected players whose leagues were in a certain era in baseball. Not the first place I would have looked for a problem if the crash was happening when I dragged an injury substitution in for my injured pitcher.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

Boy, I've seen this response so many times this version that it's actually pretty humerus to be honest.

Yes, to say "I think that has to be a bug in your copy of the game" or something similar, without further explanation, makes me feel like I'm getting the brush off.

Further explanation and clarification would leave me, and I'm sure others, feeling a whole lot more confident that OOTP takes my bug report seriously and would like to work towards solving the problem, if it can be determined that one actually exists.

I do understand that obscure issues can crop up in a complex piece of software, like OOTP Baseball, that has so many variables and user-controlled settings. Heck, it's this complexity and user control that actually draws many of us to OOTP Baseball, and separates it from the rest of the baseball management simulation games.

OOTP Baseball has become a very popular niche game, with a passionate group of users. It's fair to say that there are many different levels of users, and that some users may never see a particular problem because of the way they play the game. But just because someone hasn't seen a particular bug doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

There are many things that could contribute to issues cropping up in OOTP Baseball, like user settings and installed add-ons, which I suppose is another way of saying "I think that has to be a bug in your copy of the game." So why not just come out and give the full explanation and ask the appropriate questions.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

See, you've got the first part completely right. Such a complex game as OOTP will never be 100% free of bugs, it's simply impossible.

We always try to fix all reported bugs prior to the release of a new version, or even prior to each patch. However, sometimes bugs do not get fixed because either a) they are not properly reported and thus do not get entered into our bugs database, b) we are unable to reproduce them (and thus cannot find the cause) or c) they are so extremely rare and hard to fix that we decide against fixing them because it would take too much time.

Seriously, I want this game to be perfect, but I only have two hands and the day only 24 hours. This pitcher injury substitution thing is an issue which is pretty hard to fix and crops up rarely, hence I haven't fixed it yet, but it will be tackled prior to the OOTP 12 launch. The box score errors you report are a case of "I didn't know about them"... it's the first time I see this mentioned, and they are not in our bug database AFAIK.

Feedback like yours is very valuable for us, maybe you would be interested in becoming a beta tester.

First, thank you Markus for paying attention and responding to this message thread. My initial comment concerning the auto-substitution issue was officially reported to support on July 20, 2010, Ticket ID JHT-764096, thanks to old timer (G.B.). I offered to provide any additional information that may be helpful to troubleshoot this issue, but haven't heard anything back from OOTP.

I'm happy to hear that you try to fix all bugs, want the game to be as perfect as possible, and are working to make it happen. That's the impression I got when I researched this forum prior to buying OOTP Baseball. So I would expect nothing less.

I'm not the first person on this forum to discuss box scores issues. The only way I've caught the issues was by comparing the box scores to the actual game log when the box score seemed to be incorrect.

I politely decline your offer to becoming an "official" beta tester. I feel that I, and many others, are already performing as beta testers, at least in a limited capacity, by reporting issues in this forum. I bought OOTP Baseball to play it, not to be a beta tester for it. I am, however, perfectly willing to report issues here in this forum, and by submitting support requests, on occasion.

I did appreciate the fact that old timer started the support ticket for me concerning this issue. I wish that all viable issues reported in this forum could be handled in this manner. Some bugs will probably never be reported because not all users are willing to log into support and fill out a support request. I've submitted two requests for support so far, and while the process isn't difficult, I find that discussing issues here in this forum is a better option, because I will receive instant feedback from other users who may have seen the issue and perhaps offer solutions. I realize that support must receive hundreds of requests, and therefore can't provide immediate personal correspondence in response to each submission. So user forums such as this are a better option, and should be closely monitored by OOTP.

Again, thank you for OOTP Baseball, and your continued efforts to make it as great as humanly possible.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

Crosley,

I've seen this one before - you are not imagining things. I was reading the play-by-play and wondered what the heck happened to the runner?

If you remember which game that happened in, go back to the Game Log. When I checked my Game Log after that happened, it told me that my runner had been thrown out at second (or third) trying to stretch a single into a double (or triple). I imagine it was just a bug in the text play-by-play not properly conveying what the game engine had actually made happen.

Thanks for the feedback. I checked the game log and that's exactly what happened--the runner was thrown out at 3rd base trying to stretch a double into a triple. I thought that the game hadn't recorded an out, a hit, or made any indication of what happened in that at bat. But obviously I was mistaken. I guess that I was just too caught up in the heat of a very close game.

[OmahaBaseball]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

Thanks for the feedback. I checked the game log and that's exactly what happened--the runner was thrown out at 3rd base trying to stretch a double into a triple. I thought that the game hadn't recorded an out, a hit, or made any indication of what happened in that at bat. But obviously I was mistaken. I guess that I was just too caught up in the heat of a very close game.

I had this occur as well. Beltre was thrown out trying to go for third, yet the play by play did not convey this very well. It was only after looking at the game log did I figure out what had happened.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

I did appreciate the fact that old timer started the support ticket for me concerning this issue. I wish that all viable issues reported in this forum could be handled in this manner. Some bugs will probably never be reported because not all users are willing to log into support and fill out a support request. I've submitted two requests for support so far, and while the process isn't difficult, I find that discussing issues here in this forum is a better option, because I will receive instant feedback from other users who may have seen the issue and perhaps offer solutions.

I agree with a lot of what you have stated in this thread, but I have to disagree with this part. I just don't think it is feasible for OOTP support personel to try and go through the posts and weed out potential support tickets. I think if a potential bug is limiting a person's enjoyment of the game and they are unwilling to report the problem through official channels, then they shouldn't complain. It is fine if a person chooses not to officially report the problem, but then they shouldn't expect any official support on it.

There isn't anything wrong with also discussing the potential bug on the forum to get input from other users, but it shouldn't be considered a replacement for the support ticket.

[Malleus Dei]

1. File support tickets.
2. Join the beta testers.
3. Acquire patience.

I've been here since OOTP 1 and the game is better than ever - and I'm no fanboy, that statement just wasn't true for a very long time after the hideous transition from the awesome version 6.51 to the horror that was OOTP 2006.

[robc]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I think that has to be a bug in your copy of the game, or something very isolated like that.

Steve, you give a lot of good help and I am usually a fan of your posts but I just don't see how this could possible for vast majority of issues. When you state there is a bug in your copy of the game, it makes it sound like you expect that some rogue code has made its way to that user's computer. Even though I don't know the specifics of how OOTP works, as a former software developer I have an understanding of creating software.

I think what you may mean is that some problems are due to the options the user may have configured. If this is so, then I think you might mean that OOTP doesn't always correctly or logically handle certain combinatons of settings. So, it is a bug with OOTP, but it may only occur with certain combinations of settings or may only be noticeable with certain playing styles.

[Malleus Dei]

This game has a ton of settings, and it is easily possible to set up a baseball environment that has never been seen before, let alone tested for.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

This game has a ton of settings, and it is easily possible to set up a baseball environment that has never been seen before, let alone tested for.

No dispute there. But sometimes it is treated like the user did something wrong, which to me is incorrect. I'm also not saying that OOTP is bad if it has problems with certain settings. But I do think the onus is on OOTP to have the settings work in conjuction together or at least give a warning when bad combinations of settings are used. Of course this might not be known until a user reports a problem (through the official channels ).

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by robc

I think what you may mean is that some problems are due to the options the user may have configured.

No, I mean that the game or league files on that computer have been damaged. That happens quite often.

Sometimes people don't consider that possibility and so spend a lot of frustrating time trying to get Markus to fix something that they could quickly fix themselves.

OTOH, it is difficult to distinguish a very rare bug from a localized problem until you've tried a variety of solutions. It is also very difficult to fix a very rare bug without a lot of help from users who can carefully document what they are seeing under exactly what circumstances. An injured P getting replaced by a PH who the game won't let hit strikes me as falling into this category -- I have no idea what that is.

[Bumstead]

So, if I'm reading all this correctly, you are saying that my all-time leader in "2-out RBI's" may not actually be my all-time leader?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by SteveP

No, I mean that the game or league files on that computer have been damaged. That happens quite often.

Sometimes people don't consider that possibility and so spend a lot of frustrating time trying to get Markus to fix something that they could quickly fix themselves.

OTOH, it is difficult to distinguish a very rare bug from a localized problem until you've tried a variety of solutions. It is also very difficult to fix a very rare bug without a lot of help from users who can carefully document what they are seeing under exactly what circumstances. An injured P getting replaced by a PH who the game won't let hit strikes me as falling into this category -- I have no idea what that is.

I agree, some bugs just pop up out of nowhere. I've played 500-700 seasons in various leagues since v6. Just recently I had the AI start 3 MR in the last week of the season each time bypassing my Ace who I was carefully setting up along with the rotation for the playoffs. I've done the same sort of setting up of my rotation every season and this is the first time such a weird thing has happened. I actually had to play out the game to force my Ace to start on Saturday instead of the Wednesday before. Irritating.

[robc]

Originally Posted by SteveP

No, I mean that the game or league files on that computer have been damaged. That happens quite often.

Sometimes people don't consider that possibility and so spend a lot of frustrating time trying to get Markus to fix something that they could quickly fix themselves.

OTOH, it is difficult to distinguish a very rare bug from a localized problem until you've tried a variety of solutions. It is also very difficult to fix a very rare bug without a lot of help from users who can carefully document what they are seeing under exactly what circumstances. An injured P getting replaced by a PH who the game won't let hit strikes me as falling into this category -- I have no idea what that is.

Oh, ok. Still, I would think a league file would get corrupted due to an OOTP bug as opposed to a hardware problem more often then not (unless a user tinkered with them, powered off while the game was saving, etc). We could always agree to disagree on this.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by robc

Still, I would think a league file would get corrupted due to an OOTP bug

Who knows? If it recurs on some reasonably frequent basis, and affects a reasonable number of players, then I think that's an OK assumption. OTOH, I have certainly helped an awful lot of people get their game files fixed who don't seem to have the problem recur.

Still, it continues to surprise me how often people seem willing to continue playing with damaged game files on their computer in the firm belief that it's caused by a bug and therefore can be fixed only by Markus. It just seems a bit self-defeating to me.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by SteveP

It is also very difficult to fix a very rare bug without a lot of help from users who can carefully document what they are seeing under exactly what circumstances. An injured P getting replaced by a PH who the game won't let hit strikes me as falling into this category -- I have no idea what that is.

Obviously, this comment is directed straight at me, and I take offense to it.

The auto-replacement issue is not a rare bug at all. In my first post I provided a link to my earlier thread on this subject. Follow the link and read that thread, and this one. You'll find that I'm hardly the only one who has seen this issue.

If you want more info just ask. In an earlier post in this thread I asked what info would be needed, what files, etc., and where I would send these files. But nobody responded.

I have a support ticket (July 20, 2010, Ticket ID JHT-764096) on this issue, and offered to provide any info that would help resolve the issue. Nobody has responded to my offer.

So just what more do you expect me to do? I can't force you or anyone else at OOTP to tell me what info or files they'd want.

Your attitude is starting to piss me off!

Almost everyone here has been very helpful and courteous. But, it only takes one or two people to ruin a forum, and it's really unfortunate when it's a Forum Moderator. Kind of gives the entire forum a black eye.

I realize that I'm not a long-time OOTP user or forum member who's part of the click group. But my issues and concerns deserve respectful consideration just the same.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

Obviously, this comment is directed straight at me, and I take offense to it.

No, it was not. I'm sorry that you took it that way. The thread got diverted into a more general discussion and I was responding to that. As I said, I hope you get your problems resolved in some fashion. It sounds like, perhaps, the PH for injured P issue may be something that Markus has heard of before. It was new to me. I don't have anything to add to that.

And I am not part of OOTPDev. The moderator designation doesn't mean anything in my case. I am just another guy who posts stuff here.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

If you want more info just ask. In an earlier post in this thread I asked what info would be needed, what files, etc., and where I would send these files. But nobody responded.

I have a support ticket (July 20, 2010, Ticket ID JHT-764096) on this issue, and offered to provide any info that would help resolve the issue. Nobody has responded to my offer.

So just what more do you expect me to do? I can't force you or anyone else at OOTP to tell me what info or files they'd want.

Hi again!

I just wanted you to know why you haven't heard back from me yet...

Once Markus responds to a bug that I've logged, I'll get an email that's sent automatically by the system which ensures I won't miss any responses from him. I haven't replied back to your ticket yet, because Markus hasn't replied to the bug report yet.

At times I've wondered if people should get a reply to their ticket in some fashion to let them know it's not been forgotten about, but I'm not sure if that would really be helpful or not. All I could do would be to say "no update yet" or some such thing. Besides, I've got so many tickets I'm keeping track of it would be hard to do that. The best thing would be for people to just ask us if there's any update on their ticket's status.

Just FYI, I didn't request league files in your case because I didn't think the bug could be found after it's already occurred in a game that was played out (based on talking to Markus about this before). I'll ask him again about these situations and see if I misunderstood him and see if he would like league files in these situations.

Basically, you did exactly what you needed to do by getting the bug logged and the rest in is Markus' hands now. Once he responds to your ticket, I'll update it right away, but until then all I can do is wait, just like you.

BTW, I do think that both opening tickets and starting threads on certain issues is a good idea. If the bug is not very common or is complex, it can be helpful to get additional feedback from other users. Providing a link to the relevant forum threads in the ticket is something that can be very helpful.

I do try to monitor the forums, but I just don't have enough time to do so consistently. If they (Out of the Park Developments) make more money in the future and can pay me more, I'd be happy to do so. But for now, I still have another job and consequently I don't check in here every day because of lack of time.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by old timer

I do try to monitor the forums, but I just don't have enough time to do so consistently. If they (Out of the Park Developments) make more money in the future and can pay me more, I'd be happy to do so. But for now, I still have another job and consequently I don't check in here every day because of lack of time.

There you have it: capitalism at its most honest!

[old timer]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

There you have it: capitalism at its most honest!

Yup!

Actually, what I would do if I got paid more by OOTPD, is work less on my other job (I'm self-employed). In other words, I can't afford to volunteer more time, because if I do I'll have to cut back on my regular job and consequently make less money.

Besides the two jobs, I also home-school my 6-year old daughter and my wife likes some attention too. Just not enough time in the day!