40 man roster

[targy]

I know my league expands to a 40 man roster but I thought that when the off season starts the 40 man roster goes back to a 25 man roster. It is now middle of January and I noticed it was still at a 40 man roster is that a bug

[phenom]

Goes back to 25 on Opening Day.

[Voros McCracken]

Right, also every man on the 40 man becomes part of the active roster for spring training automatically.

[Sweed]

Yeah, IRL the players stay on the 40 man 'til opening day. However, I believe previous OOTPs went back to 25 man at the end of the playoffs. This is important to OOTP because by not going back to 25 men one issue comes up that causes problems.

Now maybe it's only because it's my imported vX league but here is the result of rosters not going back to 25 men in my league. On Nov. 16 (free agent filing day) all players on 40 man rosters with expiring contracts (not filing for FA) were awarded new MLB minimum dollar contracts for the next season. This of course included any Sept. call-ups that were only there to get a look see. In real life, I believe these guys would revert back to their current minor league deals (which of course in OOTP don't have any dollar values) for the following season, correct?

That's not happening in my OOTP league. I end up paying up to 15 players 350K for the following season. That could result in anywhere from 2 to 5 million dollars on the payroll that shouldn't be there. Of course the easy fix is to demote those you want back on minor league deals before Nov. 16th(as in previous OOTPs). The problem there is the AI teams are not demoting anyone and so are also paying all of these guys league min. deals. So to have a fair playing field I'm not wanting to demote my guys to save only my team money.

My guess is Markus decided to leave 40 mans in tact as IRL until following opening day, a good thing. The bad is I think this payroll issue is an unintended consequence that IMHO isn't working as it should be.

Unless I'm convinced in this thread, by someone in the know, that this is working as it should be I'm going to get a support ticket in before the next patch is done.

Also very interested to see if others are seeing the "payroll" issue I am seeing or if perhaps it's something peculiar to my league in particular or all imported leagues in general?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by targy

I know my league expands to a 40 man roster but I thought that when the off season starts the 40 man roster goes back to a 25 man roster. It is now middle of January and I noticed it was still at a 40 man roster is that a bug

If you have time I'd appreciate if you would check your teams transactions on FA day to see if you also encountered the payroll issue that I did.

Thanks.

[targy]

Thanks, In OOTP10 and earlier the 40 roster would go back to 25 after the season ended

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Now maybe it's only because it's my imported vX league but here is the result of rosters not going back to 25 men in my league. On Nov. 16 (free agent filing day) all players on 40 man rosters with expiring contracts (not filing for FA) were awarded new MLB minimum dollar contracts for the next season. This of course included any Sept. call-ups that were only there to get a look see. In real life, I believe these guys would revert back to their current minor league deals (which of course in OOTP don't have any dollar values) for the following season, correct?

That's not happening in my OOTP league. I end up paying up to 15 players 350K for the following season. That could result in anywhere from 2 to 5 million dollars on the payroll that shouldn't be there. Of course the easy fix is to demote those you want back on minor league deals before Nov. 16th(as in previous OOTPs). The problem there is the AI teams are not demoting anyone and so are also paying all of these guys league min. deals. So to have a fair playing field I'm not wanting to demote my guys to save only my team money.

If 40-man guys in the minors are not getting those MLB contracts, then that is the bug; you shouldn't be able to avoid paying your 40-man roster guys. The game now works so that players on min-wage contracts are only paid a small fraction (10% or something) of their salary while in the minors (they are 'split contracts'). So while it may appear that you have 40 guys who will all be making money in the coming year, 15 of them will actually be earning a pittance.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by injury log

If 40-man guys in the minors are not getting those MLB contracts, then that is the bug; you shouldn't be able to avoid paying your 40-man roster guys. The game now works so that players on min-wage contracts are only paid a small fraction (10% or something) of their salary while in the minors (they are 'split contracts'). So while it may appear that you have 40 guys who will all be making money in the coming year, 15 of them will actually be earning a pittance.

Thanks for the response and taking the time to explain the new system. This is very cool, glad it works that way but had no idea it had changed. I looked at the online manual and it still says...

Who Goes on the Secondary Roster?

There are numerous rules about which players can or must be on the secondary roster, as follows:

* Any player on the active roster must also be on the secondary roster.
* Any player with a major league contract must be placed on the secondary roster, unless they have cleared waivers and been assigned to the minor leagues
* Any player acquired by trade or waiver claim who was on his previous team's secondary roster must also be placed on the acquiring team's secondary roster.

If, after this, you still have slots available on your secondary roster, they can be filled with players who have minor league contract. Players on the secondary roster who are not on the active roster are assigned to one of the minor league teams in the organization.

Split Contracts

In professional baseball, there exists a concept of a split contract, that dictates how much a player will make for playing in the majors, and how much he will make for playing in the minors. Split contracts do not exist in OOTP. You are either on a major league contract, or a minor league contract.

A little confusing and hopefully Battists can get the online manual updated to reflect how the version 11 is handling these contracts.

I play out all games and am in my first spring training so have yet to see how this plays out on opening day. Does the contract box on the player card reflect the "minor league" salary along with the MLB salary when said player is in the minors, IE are you shown the player is earning say $35,000 instead of $350,000? If not is this information available anywhere else?
Thanks again.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Yeah, IRL the players stay on the 40 man 'til opening day. However, I believe previous OOTPs went back to 25 man at the end of the playoffs. This is important to OOTP because by not going back to 25 men one issue comes up that causes problems.

Now maybe it's only because it's my imported vX league but here is the result of rosters not going back to 25 men in my league. On Nov. 16 (free agent filing day) all players on 40 man rosters with expiring contracts (not filing for FA) were awarded new MLB minimum dollar contracts for the next season. This of course included any Sept. call-ups that were only there to get a look see. In real life, I believe these guys would revert back to their current minor league deals (which of course in OOTP don't have any dollar values) for the following season, correct?

That's not happening in my OOTP league. I end up paying up to 15 players 350K for the following season. That could result in anywhere from 2 to 5 million dollars on the payroll that shouldn't be there. Of course the easy fix is to demote those you want back on minor league deals before Nov. 16th(as in previous OOTPs). The problem there is the AI teams are not demoting anyone and so are also paying all of these guys league min. deals. So to have a fair playing field I'm not wanting to demote my guys to save only my team money.

My guess is Markus decided to leave 40 mans in tact as IRL until following opening day, a good thing. The bad is I think this payroll issue is an unintended consequence that IMHO isn't working as it should be.

Unless I'm convinced in this thread, by someone in the know, that this is working as it should be I'm going to get a support ticket in before the next patch is done.

Also very interested to see if others are seeing the "payroll" issue I am seeing or if perhaps it's something peculiar to my league in particular or all imported leagues in general?

This is exactly what I've observed, and I was planning to start a new thread discussing it until I came across this post.

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more discussion on this topic.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by snepp

This is exactly what I've observed, and I was planning to start a new thread discussing it until I came across this post.

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more discussion on this topic.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised too. To update my situation I have of course moved into my regular season and there is no indication I can find that shows I am paying my minor league 40 man players less than MLB minimum ($350K).

I'm not doubting injury log's explanation, he's been on previous beta teams and I'm sure he was in on the version 11 team too. But it would be nice to have both an in-game indication of what you are actually paying a player and the manual updated with an explanation of the current model.

[snepp]

I've been doing a little bit of testing. It appears his explanation is basically accurate. In the league I'm working on the players making the league minimum, and in the minor leagues, are costing the team roughly 15%. It doesn't appear that the game differenciates between the minimums assigned automatically and the minimums given explicitly by the player (either through free agency or extensions).

Minor leaguers on the 40-man aren't getting assigned contracts on the free agent filing day though, which he said should be logged as a bug. This obviously gives the human an advantage in that we (typically) wouldn't put everybody on the active roster at the end of the season, forcing them to get assigned contracts, whereas the CPU does (with the exception of a few low minors players here and there).

The dollars spent advantage isn't necessarily a big one, the biggest issue is with the team's budget. All of those minor leaguers that have league minimum contracts count 100% against the budget, even if they're only collecting 15% in the minors. This can give the player considerably more budget room than they would otherwise have compared to the CPU teams.

I haven't had a chance to put much thought into it, but the simplest solution may be to only count 15% of the player's league minimum against the budget until the start of the regular season. Or maybe only count the top 25 salaries against the budget until the regular season begins.

[oman19]

I actually was running into this same thing. I use a salary cap so it really can cause some havoc.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Yeah, I'm a little surprised too. To update my situation I have of course moved into my regular season and there is no indication I can find that shows I am paying my minor league 40 man players less than MLB minimum ($350K).

I'm not doubting injury log's explanation, he's been on previous beta teams and I'm sure he was in on the version 11 team too.

Yeah, it was a late change to the game during beta, and not something I ever had a chance to test, so I was just relaying what Markus had said on the beta boards. The main purpose of the change was to close an outstanding waivers loophole (in OOTP-X, if you claimed a player on waivers who had a minor league contract, you weren't ever forced to add him to your 40-man roster, which was an unrealistic exploit). I was concerned that there might be issues resulting from the change - particularly in the calculation of budget figures; the game should only be counting 25 big league salaries in calculating payroll, plus 15% of the remaining 15 min wage salaries. No idea if it's doing that now, nor whether salary cap leagues that use the reported payroll number on the Front Office page will need to raise their caps now. If anyone has a chance to look into those areas and notices problems, it would be great to get them logged in tech support.

[oman19]

I'm pretty sure the salaries do count against the cap/budget. Had to waive some players to start signing free agents. Not 100 percent on this cause I was butting up against the cap as it was so might of been over anyway. I'll try to double check it next time i get close.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by injury log

I was concerned that there might be issues resulting from the change - particularly in the calculation of budget figures; the game should only be counting 25 big league salaries in calculating payroll, plus 15% of the remaining 15 min wage salaries.

That's the perfect solution, much better than my half-assed suggestions I posted last night. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be working as intended. Those minor leaguers are counting fulling against the budget. I'll recheck the numbers to be sure.

A minor related annoyance (which has been around forever) is the entire active roster counting against the budget during spring training, with the players on minor league contracts assumed to have league minimum deals. This can make roster moves difficult if you're close to your budget entering spring. I don't know how many times I've had to send players down to the minors halfway through spring training just to free up enough budget space to make a move. Seems a bit silly in that respect.

Originally Posted by injury log

If 40-man guys in the minors are not getting those MLB contracts, then that is the bug; you shouldn't be able to avoid paying your 40-man roster guys.

I am 100% positive that they are not receiving those contracts.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by snepp

I don't know how many times I've had to send players down to the minors halfway through spring training just to free up enough budget space to make a move. Seems a bit silly in that respect.

On the other hand, from my analysis of the typical transaction moves made during spring training, major league clubs trim their rosters throughout the training period. The timing of the cuts varies from team to team, naturally, but the rough average of the typical number of players left on active service (with the rest optioned to the minors) from the 40-man roster works out like this for the five-week spring training period:

1st week: 40 players
2nd week: 40 players
3rd week: 36 players
4th week: 32 players
5th week: 28 players

So, for example, heading into that last week of spring training major league clubs have roughly 28 players on average on their active roster, with the other 12 players having already been optioned to the minors. The last three cuts are made at the end of that last week of spring training to bring the active roster down to its opening day value of 25.

[mgom27]

Iv'e had in my second year my team's Market Shares go down and in that same year 1902 Peter Angelos sell the Oriloes and like Hanley Ramirez and CC retire.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

On the other hand, from my analysis of the typical transaction moves made during spring training, major league clubs trim their rosters throughout the training period. The timing of the cuts varies from team to team, naturally, but the rough average of the typical number of players left on active service (with the rest optioned to the minors) from the 40-man roster works out like this for the five-week spring training period:

1st week: 40 players
2nd week: 40 players
3rd week: 36 players
4th week: 32 players
5th week: 28 players

So, for example, heading into that last week of spring training major league clubs have roughly 28 players on average on their active roster, with the other 12 players having already been optioned to the minors. The last three cuts are made at the end of that last week of spring training to bring the active roster down to its opening day value of 25.

I understand the trimming of the roster, I typically send the fringe members of the 40-man roster down after a couple weeks just to ensure that additional playing time goes to the players who need it.

Major league teams don't mysteriously gain millions of dollars of additional budget room when they trim the roster though, unlike in OOTP.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by mgom27

Iv'e had in my second year my team's Market Shares go down and in that same year 1902 Peter Angelos sell the Oriloes and like Hanley Ramirez and CC retire.

Fail Fail Fail....please do better.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by snepp

I am 100% positive that they are not receiving those contracts.

Maybe I should have said 99%. Doh.

I assumed they were supposed to be getting assigned those contract on the free agent filing day. I see now that the minor leaguers on the 40-man don't get the contracts assigned until the start of the regular season (which is fine).

I still believe there's a problem with how they're counted against the budget, will have to run the numbers to be sure.