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Old 01-11-2010, 10:30 PM   #1
BigBoyBrackey
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The Greatest of This Time

Most of the threads on here, including mine, focus on boxing's past, from Chris Conn's early 18th-century musings to numerous universes set in the days of our youth.

While looking through a number of current ratings while mulling the Mayweather-Pacquiao disaster, I started thinking that I've been largely ignoring one of the many terrific aspects of the game -- the multitude of present-day ratings.

To rectify that, I'm going to be running a series of tournaments, one for each weight division, set in the here and now. I'd planned on simming Pacquiao-Mayweather, but am too pissed at both of them and especially their promotional teams to do that right now. Instead, I'm going to start with the welterweights, figuring that by the time they meet, I'll look at that fight as what could still be instead of what should have been.

I'm still working out the details in my head of how this will all work, but it will be something like this ... I decided against a traditional single-elimination tournament, due to the flukiness factor. Instead, inspired by Showtime's Super Six, I'm going to go with a round-robin format. The number of fighters will vary by division. I'm going to start with the welters and a 16-man tourney, but due to the number of similar-quality fighters once you get past the top 12 or so, there will be a fight-in tournament.

I'm looking at 23 welters in all -- 15 that I choose and eight to fight it out in a single-elimination qualifier for the last spot. The round-robin tournaments will lead to box offs among the top two or four finishers -- not quite sure about that one yet.

Here's where I'm at:

IN
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao
Shane Mosley
Miguel Cotto
Antonio Margarito
Joshua Clottey
Andre Berto
Carlos Quintana
Luis Collazo
Isaac Hlatswayo
Yvacheslav Senchenko
Zab Judah


MAYBE IN/NEED RATINGS?
Jan Zaveck
Luciano Abis
Rafal Jackiewicz
Shamone Alvarez

POSSIBLE QUALIFIERS
Delvin Rodriguez
Kell Brook
Jackson Osei Bonsu
Tadashi Yuba
Michel Trabant
Alfonso Gomez
Viktor Plotnikov
Rock Allen

IN LIMBO
Ricky Hatton
Paul Williams

If anyone has ratings for the four (Zaveck, Abis, Jackiewicz, Alvarez) so listed, or can point me to them if they exist somewhere else already, it would be greatly appreciated. Odd thing is, I can find them in the photo threads, but not their ratings.

As for the 'in limbo' heading, I thought about putting Hatton in since it seems likely that he'll be back at some point, and welter would seem the likely division, given his conditioning history. That said, I feel like I'd have to adjust his ratings if I use him. He's got a 1-vs-knockdown/0-vs-knockout rating at junior welter and a 2-0 at welter, suggesting the ratings were done before he ran into Mr. Pacquiao. Making him something like a 3/2 and lowering his hp from 9 to 7 at welter seems like it would better reflect his abilities for the purposes of this tournament's premise. Or maybe I should leave him out entirely ...

(NOTE ABOUT RATINGS: Nothing I ask about or mention here should be construed in any way as a criticism of the ratings or the people who compiled them. Everyone involved did a terrific job and deserve copious thanks from all of us who use them. As I go through the active fighters, it's sometimes tough to tell when they were last updated, as mentioned above in the case of Hatton, and whether I should adjust them before using them to best represent their up-to-the-moment abilities.)

Similarly, Clottey is a 6 in the database, and the record in his bio is 33-2. So if the rating covers his career to that point, it doesn't account for his wins over Shamone Alvarez, Jose Luis Cruz or Zab Judah, nor his split decision loss to Miguel Cotto in June.

Paul Williams is another guy I'm not sure what to do with. He'd certainly make the welter field more interesting, but hasn't fought at 147 since June of 2008 and seems unlikely to do so again. My initial thought was to include fighters in no more than two weight divisions, and he'd probably be best suited to 154 and 160 at this point. PWill, do you have any thoughts on the matter?

I'm also torn on Margarito. I hate to include him, as loading gloves is about the most despicable thing a fighter or trainer can do. If I use him, should I make some effort to account for the plaster? Lowering hp and adjusting 3/2 point punches, maybe?

Other than those mentioned above, I'm planning on deferring to the database team (particularly since I'm a pre-novice when it comes to such matters) and leaving everyone else alone at this point.

My plan is for this to be less writing-intensive than the Page uni (which I'm going to keep going full speed) or earlier threads (which I hope to return to from time to time), particularly given the 120+ fights required for a 16-man round-robin, while becoming more familiar with more modern-day fighters.

I'd welcome any input (especially the ratings mentioned above) as I set this up. And if you think I've left anyone out, please let me know.

Last edited by BigBoyBrackey; 01-11-2010 at 10:46 PM. Reason: add detail
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:38 AM   #2
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Out of curiosity, have you updated the database for this new thread you're doing? My suggestion is start with a fresh database, update the database then from the Uni update the pool. You may find that the ratings will be far more up to date that way.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:40 AM   #3
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Out of curiosity, have you updated the database for this new thread you're doing? My suggestion is start with a fresh database, update the database then from the Uni update the pool. You may find that the ratings will be far more up to date that way.
Yes, I started a new universe on 1/1/10, then updated from the pool yesterday and am working with those ratings ...
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:50 AM   #4
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Do you move guys like Zab Judah and Isaac Hlastwayo to post-prime? I've done something like this myself before, with all divisions and i used alot of time deciding whether a certain fighter should be moved to Post-prime, End or be retired (Many retired fighters listed as active in the database)
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:08 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by aaaaaaaaa View Post
Do you move guys like Zab Judah and Isaac Hlastwayo to post-prime? I've done something like this myself before, with all divisions and i used alot of time deciding whether a certain fighter should be moved to Post-prime, End or be retired (Many retired fighters listed as active in the database)
That's another thing I'm mulling over. Judah's an 8 right now, and as I recall he was higher a few years ago. So I'm not sure if the 8 represents his present abilities as an active fighter, or the peak of his career. I've seen it both ways -- before Riddick Bowe moved over to retired, he was still rated as an 11, prime, in the active pool. So to use him at all in the present day, you had to make him 'end,' which still didn't really accurately portray the guy who stumbled through a handful of sad tank-town fights. Meanwhile, I think in TB2, Michael Moorer was a 4 prime active, which probably was accurate for the guy who was a trialhorse in the early 00s.

One reason I'm undertaking this project is to get a better understanding of how ratings work, as well as career stages, etc. If anyone from the database team can provide insight, it would be much appreciated ...
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:33 PM   #6
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Here we go ...

After a fair amount of consideration, I decided against including Paul Williams, since he is no longer a welterweight, or Ricky Hatton, since he is not, at the moment, a boxer.

For these tournaments, I'm going to use Jan. 1, 2009 as the cutoff, with some flexibility. So Pacquiao will be eligible at welter and junior welter, while Hatton will be eligible at 140. I may make an exception for someone like Williams, has not fought at 154 or below since November 2008, but has fought at 157 and could certainly make the jr. middle limit if needed.

As for the welters, 15 spots in the round-robin field of 16 have been filled:

Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Shane Mosley
Miguel Cotto
Antonio Margarito
Joshua Clottey
Andre Berto
Carlos Quintana
Luis Collazo
Yvacheslav Senchenko
Zab Judah
Jan Zaveck
Rafal Jackiewicz
Delvin Rodriguez
Kell Brook

The 16th spot will be filled through an eight-man, single-elimination qualifying tournament. Seven of the competitors in that tourney are:

Shamone Alvarez
Isaac Hlatshwayo (pp)
Luciano Abis
Jackson Osei Bonsu
Michel Trabant
Alfonso Gomez
Viktor Plotnikov

The eighth spot goes to the winner of a 10-round pre-qualifier qualifying bout between unbeaten prospects Rock Allen and Mike Jones.

Judah and Hlatshwayo will be fighting at post-prime. Also, I've deducted one point from Margarito's hp to account for the plaster.

Qualifying tournament bouts will be 10 rounds, except for the final, which will be 12. All fights in the round-robin main tournament will be scheduled for 12 rounds.

Cornermen and officials, as well as conditioning, will be random, with the computer selecting strategies.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:33 PM   #7
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Pre-Qualifier Qualifier

Mike Jones TKO5 Rock Allen

A nasty cut over Allen's swollen right eye opened for the third time late in the fifth, leading referee Gary Rosato to call the fight at the 2:54 mark.

Jones hurt Allen with booming right crosses in the first and second and dropped him for an eight count early in the fourth.

Allen, who won the third round, went toe-to-toe with his fellow unbeaten Philly prospect for most of the fifth, but was led to the ring doctor by Rosato twice in order to have his injured eye examined.

Jones advances to the eight-man qualifying tournament.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:43 PM   #8
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Qualifying Tournament Draw

1st Round


Isaac Hlatshwayo vs. Viktor Plotnikov
Michel Trabant vs. Luciano Abis
Alfonso Gomez vs. Shamone Alvarez
Mike Jones vs. Jackson Osei Bonsu
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Old 01-13-2010, 02:36 AM   #9
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Looks good so far, will definitely be enjoying it as your work has been very entertaining in all your efforts to date!
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:34 AM   #10
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May i also recommend, since his WW Prime rating is very high, and his post-prime rating is still top 3 in the division (11), moving Shane Mosley to post-prime. It seems that the post-prime rating gives him the kind of results he has gotten as of late.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:43 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by aaaaaaaaa View Post
May i also recommend, since his WW Prime rating is very high, and his post-prime rating is still top 3 in the division (11), moving Shane Mosley to post-prime. It seems that the post-prime rating gives him the kind of results he has gotten as of late.
I'll look at that. I'm wondering about moving Cotto to post-prime, as well, given his last few fights. Again, I'm not sure when he was last updated, so am not sure whether his current numbers reflect the Margarito and Clottey fights -- I don't imagine they include Manny. His performance there could also suggest a move to post-prime ...
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:49 PM   #12
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Welterweight qualifier - First round

Controversy strikes the tournament before it officially begins, when Michel Trabant is disqualified for not having fought at welterweight in 2009.

"It's not like I hid my record," Trabant said while departing the locker room at the Blue Horizon in Philadelphia, where the qualifying tournament is being held. "Jerks."

"Those responsible have been sacked," read a statement attributed to unnamed tournament officials.

Michael Jennings was named to replace Trabant, who had fought twice at junior middleweight since getting stopped in six by Andre Berto in February 2008.

First-round results:

Viktor Plotnikov KO10 Isaac Hlatshwayo: Plotnikov overcomes a nasty cut over his left eye, suffered in the fourth round, to carry a slight edge into the final frame. Hlatshwanko goes for the knockout, landing some hard shots, but walks into a perfect left hook midway through. He gets up, but is dropped twice more and counted out with four seconds remaining. Plotnikov leads 86-85 on all three cards through nine.

Michael Jennings TKO6 Luciano Albis: Jennings comes out with a bang, dropping Albis with a left hook 20 seconds after the opening bell. Albis survives and fights on even terms for the next three rounds, but sustains a bad cut over his left eye in the fifth. It reopens in the next round, forcing a stoppage. Jennings leads 48-47, 48-46, 49-45 at the end.

Alfonso Gomez W10 Shamone Alvarez: Gomez outmaneuvers Alvarez and absorbs the southpaw's best shots, landing enough to eke out a majority nod in a sometimes-dull fight. Gomez prevails by scores of 97-93, 96-96 and 96-94.

Jackson Osei Bonsu W10 Mike Jones: Bonsu wins a back-and-forth slugfest by split decision. Scores are 96-94 Bonsu, 96-95 Jones and, in the tournament's first scoring controversy, 99-91 Bonsu.

Second-round draw:

Plotnikov vs. Jennings
Gomez vs. Bonsu
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoyBrackey View Post
Most of the threads on here, including mine, focus on boxing's past, from Chris Conn's early 18th-century musings to numerous universes set in the days of our youth.

While looking through a number of current ratings while mulling the Mayweather-Pacquiao disaster, I started thinking that I've been largely ignoring one of the many terrific aspects of the game -- the multitude of present-day ratings.

To rectify that, I'm going to be running a series of tournaments, one for each weight division, set in the here and now. I'd planned on simming Pacquiao-Mayweather, but am too pissed at both of them and especially their promotional teams to do that right now. Instead, I'm going to start with the welterweights, figuring that by the time they meet, I'll look at that fight as what could still be instead of what should have been.

I'm still working out the details in my head of how this will all work, but it will be something like this ... I decided against a traditional single-elimination tournament, due to the flukiness factor. Instead, inspired by Showtime's Super Six, I'm going to go with a round-robin format. The number of fighters will vary by division. I'm going to start with the welters and a 16-man tourney, but due to the number of similar-quality fighters once you get past the top 12 or so, there will be a fight-in tournament.

I'm looking at 23 welters in all -- 15 that I choose and eight to fight it out in a single-elimination qualifier for the last spot. The round-robin tournaments will lead to box offs among the top two or four finishers -- not quite sure about that one yet.

Here's where I'm at:

IN
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao
Shane Mosley
Miguel Cotto
Antonio Margarito
Joshua Clottey
Andre Berto
Carlos Quintana
Luis Collazo
Isaac Hlatswayo
Yvacheslav Senchenko
Zab Judah


MAYBE IN/NEED RATINGS?
Jan Zaveck
Luciano Abis
Rafal Jackiewicz
Shamone Alvarez

POSSIBLE QUALIFIERS
Delvin Rodriguez
Kell Brook
Jackson Osei Bonsu
Tadashi Yuba
Michel Trabant
Alfonso Gomez
Viktor Plotnikov
Rock Allen

IN LIMBO
Ricky Hatton
Paul Williams

If anyone has ratings for the four (Zaveck, Abis, Jackiewicz, Alvarez) so listed, or can point me to them if they exist somewhere else already, it would be greatly appreciated. Odd thing is, I can find them in the photo threads, but not their ratings.

As for the 'in limbo' heading, I thought about putting Hatton in since it seems likely that he'll be back at some point, and welter would seem the likely division, given his conditioning history. That said, I feel like I'd have to adjust his ratings if I use him. He's got a 1-vs-knockdown/0-vs-knockout rating at junior welter and a 2-0 at welter, suggesting the ratings were done before he ran into Mr. Pacquiao. Making him something like a 3/2 and lowering his hp from 9 to 7 at welter seems like it would better reflect his abilities for the purposes of this tournament's premise. Or maybe I should leave him out entirely ...

(NOTE ABOUT RATINGS: Nothing I ask about or mention here should be construed in any way as a criticism of the ratings or the people who compiled them. Everyone involved did a terrific job and deserve copious thanks from all of us who use them. As I go through the active fighters, it's sometimes tough to tell when they were last updated, as mentioned above in the case of Hatton, and whether I should adjust them before using them to best represent their up-to-the-moment abilities.)

Similarly, Clottey is a 6 in the database, and the record in his bio is 33-2. So if the rating covers his career to that point, it doesn't account for his wins over Shamone Alvarez, Jose Luis Cruz or Zab Judah, nor his split decision loss to Miguel Cotto in June.

Paul Williams is another guy I'm not sure what to do with. He'd certainly make the welter field more interesting, but hasn't fought at 147 since June of 2008 and seems unlikely to do so again. My initial thought was to include fighters in no more than two weight divisions, and he'd probably be best suited to 154 and 160 at this point. PWill, do you have any thoughts on the matter?

I'm also torn on Margarito. I hate to include him, as loading gloves is about the most despicable thing a fighter or trainer can do. If I use him, should I make some effort to account for the plaster? Lowering hp and adjusting 3/2 point punches, maybe?

Other than those mentioned above, I'm planning on deferring to the database team (particularly since I'm a pre-novice when it comes to such matters) and leaving everyone else alone at this point.

My plan is for this to be less writing-intensive than the Page uni (which I'm going to keep going full speed) or earlier threads (which I hope to return to from time to time), particularly given the 120+ fights required for a 16-man round-robin, while becoming more familiar with more modern-day fighters.

I'd welcome any input (especially the ratings mentioned above) as I set this up. And if you think I've left anyone out, please let me know.

I think if these tournaments came up and the prize money was based on the match ups in the tournaments Paul would fight at 147. While he definitely cuts weight to campaign there, he is adamant that he can make it easily and the Quintana rematch he weighed 145 if memory serves me.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:32 AM   #14
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I think if these tournaments came up and the prize money was based on the match ups in the tournaments Paul would fight at 147. While he definitely cuts weight to campaign there, he is adamant that he can make it easily and the Quintana rematch he weighed 145 if memory serves me.
I decided to go with him at junior middle and middle, though you're probably right and he could make the weight if needed. I'm arbitrarily limiting fighters to two weight classes and wanted to make sure to have him at 160, since that might be the only way we ever see him in with Pavlik ...
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:20 AM   #15
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Breaking news ...

The Greatest of This Time welterweight tournament was thrown into turmoil last night when multi-division contender Paul Williams held an impromptu press conference at ring side after Jackson Osei Bonsu's split-decision win over Mike Jones capped the first round of qualifying action.

"How the &@(* could they leave me out?" demanded a visibly angry Williams. "Just another case of everybody being afraid of PWill."

Williams insisted he could easily make the 147 pound weight limit, despite not fighting at welter since mid-2008.

Tournament officials are reportedly reconsidering their decision to limit fighters to two weight divisions.

"We didn't think he could make the weight," said one, on condition of anonymity. "But if there's a way to work him in, it would certainly make the tournament better."
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:33 PM   #16
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Well done, Paul just said yesterday he would be more than happy to fight Floyd on March 13th at 47.
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:47 PM   #17
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It figures that the week I start this thing, Kermit Cintron announces that he wants to fight at 147 again and Ricky Hatton says he's coming back. But if those two and Paul Williams want to disrupt the nearly set field for this tournament, they'll have to fight their way in.

Instead of adding a four-man tournament among some of the lesser lights in the field to create three openings, the survivor of the eight-man qualifying tournament already underway wins the privilege of facing Williams for a spot in the field of 16, while Delvin Rodriguez takes on Cintron and Rafal Jackiewicz squares off with Hatton.

I hate to change the set-up once things are underway, but then, what's the point of ruling a universe if you can't arbitrarily alter things to suit your personal whims?
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:06 PM   #18
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Welterweight qualifier -- semifinals

Viktor Plotnikov W10 Michael Jennings: Plotnikov nearly scored a second late knockout, but Jennings made it to the final bell after hitting the floor late in the ninth and early in the 10th.

Plotnikov never landed a damaging punch after the second knockdown, but prevailed 97-91, 96-91, 97-90 to reach the qualifier final. Jennings, who came in on the puffy side, led on one scorecard and was even on another through seven rounds, but his conditioning betrayed him from the eighth on.

Alfonso Gomez W10 Jackson Osei Bonsu: Gomez used a steady body attack and solid defense to defuse Bonsu's aggression. Gomez built an early lead, though he never had Bonsu in any trouble, and overcame a nasty cut over his left eye, the result of an accidental clash of heads in the ninth. Scoring was all over the place: 96-94 Gomez, 95-95 (highly questionable) and 98-92 (probably the most accurate).

Gomez advances to meet Plotnikov for the privilege of facing Paul Williams for a spot in the 16-man field.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:38 PM   #19
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Welterweight qualifier - final

Viktor Plotnikov D12 Alfonso Gomez: Gomez, who had been on the floor in the fifth and 11th rounds, salvaged the draw by dropping Plotnikov with a right cross with a minute remaining in the final frame.

Gomez held a 6-5-1 edge in rounds on two cards, but Plotnikov's 2-1 edge in knockdowns left each card knotted at 113. Gomez had a slight edge in punches landed, while Plotnikov was more accurate and landed the harder shots.

A rematch is required to determine which fighter advances to face Paul Williams for a berth in the round-robin tournament.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:50 PM   #20
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Welterweight qualifier - final (rematch)

Alfonso Gomez W12 Viktor Plotnikov: Gomez used volume punching to gain the edge in the early rounds and, after Plotnikov seemed to take control with his power punches in the middle rounds, got the better of a dull final frame -- at least in the eyes of the three judges -- to eke out a narrow, but unanimous decision.

The fight was so even that the two had landed the exact same number of punches through seven rounds, and again after 10. Plotnikov wound up landing 264 shots to 252 for Gomez, while Gomez was slightly more accurate.

Gomez, who avoided elimination with a late knockdown to pull out a draw in the first fight, landed a hard left hook to the body early in the 12th, the round's only meaningful punch. Gomez won by scores of 115-114, 116-114 and 115-114.
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