Manual or OOTP award voting

[Jose Cardenal's Afro]

I was just curious who lets OOTP assign awards and who does it manually and why.

[johnnybourbon]

Originally Posted by Jose Cardenal's Afro

I was just curious who lets OOTP assign awards and who does it manually and why.

OOTP generally picks the dude with the highest VORP. I pick the best overall

[struggles_mightily]

Manual, since OOTP makes no real attempt to incorporate defense.

Also, when I play historical, I sometimes like to give awards to guys that aren't deserving but who I think writers would like. Popular guys on winning teams with good triple crown statistics, basically. Just so I can recreate an annoying real-world thing in my fictional baseball universes to annoy myself doubly...

[acclaim99]

I kinda do both.

I have OOTP pick who they they think should win the awards, then I just go double check to make sure there aren't any more deserving people...

Kinda like how Howard should have won over Pujols last year.

[satchel]

Manual voting. I know that my own judgment is biased, but I still like my picks better. In my online league, we vote, of course—that's the best way.

[damonrusst]

I let OOTP pick then review to make sure some horrible injustice wasn't committed. I haven't reversed one yet. Only if you can argue that their pick was completely undeserving by comparison will I change it.

[struggles_mightily]

Originally Posted by acclaim99

Kinda like how Howard should have won over Pujols last year.

Ahem.

[acclaim99]

Ahem. As Pujol said a few years ago, a 5th place team shouldn't have the league mvp. Esp one with less, R, Hr, and RBIs.

[damientheomen3]

a .251 BA with 48 HRs but 199 Ks is more deserving of an MVP than a .357 BA with 37 HRs (in almost 100 less ABs) and an OPS of 1.114? no way!

[acclaim99]

one players team finishes 1st, the other in the cellar basically?

just saying

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

Manual, since OOTP makes no real attempt to incorporate defense.

Also, when I play historical, I sometimes like to give awards to guys that aren't deserving but who I think writers would like. Popular guys on winning teams with good triple crown statistics, basically. Just so I can recreate an annoying real-world thing in my fictional baseball universes to annoy myself doubly...

So its like the real voting then.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by acclaim99

one players team finishes 1st, the other in the cellar basically?

just saying

the phils had chase utley, jimmy rollins, ryan howard, shane victorino, and cole hamels, while the cards were down their ace all year, and battled some other injuries as well

and, the NL central fielded 4 teams above .500, and 2 90 win teams. Who did the Phillies have to worry about? the imploding Mets, the young Marlins, the injured Atlanta, and the god awful Nationals

[struggles_mightily]

Originally Posted by acclaim99

Ahem. As Pujol said a few years ago, a 5th place team shouldn't have the league mvp. Esp one with less, R, Hr, and RBIs.

Pujols can be wrong about stuff. He seems like a nice, humble guy and not the sort to blow his own trumpet.

Anyway:

Ryan Howard ranked 29th (!!!!) in the NL in VORP. 47th (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) in OBP. Even in SLG, he was only 6th. 21st in WPA. Didn't crack the top 10 in OPS+, and BB-Ref's leaderboards don't go any further (I doubt he'd make the top 15 either). He did all this whilst playing below-average defense at the diamond's easiest position. Ryan Howard was the Philadelphia Phillies' 4th Most Valuable (Position) Player. If you want to make the 'the MVP must come from a successful team' argument; then I will disagree with you but concede that it has some validity. Bloodying Heck, though, at least choose a good player from a winning team.

Interesting factoid: Of the 11 full-time 1B in the NL with 500 PA or more in 2008, Howard had a better OBP than only two: Mike Jacobs and James Loney. And how many points did RH whip Loney's ass by? 1. 1 'points'.

Albert Pujols led the league in VORP, SLG (by 62 points!), MLV, OPS and OPS+. He trailed Chipper Jones in OBP by a barely-significant 8 points. He was second in WPA to Lance Berkman. He is by far the best defensive 1B in the league. If you're into trad stats then he was the only player to finish in the top 5 of all three Triple Crown categories.

I'd like to invite you all to play a little game. It's called the 'Name Baseball Playing Men Who Were More Betterer at Playing the Baseball Game in the 2008 National League of National Baseball Playing Competition than Mr. Ryan James Howard Was' game.

Anyone can join in the fun! (I've bolded first basemen and italicised Phillies. I have also included players who were traded into / out of the league in midseason -- just because they split time between two teams, it doesn't make Howard any better than them).

Albert Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, Chipper Jones, Lance Berkman, David Wright, Chase Utley, Jose Reyes, Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, Ryan Ludwick, Brian McCann, Nate McLouth, Manny Ramirez, Adrian Gonzalez, Aramis Ramirez, Jimmy Rollins, Carlos Lee, Andre Ethier, Stephen Drew, Prince Fielder, Dan Uggla, J.J. Hardy, Ryan Doumit, Carlos Delgado, Russell Martin, Troy Glaus, Matt Kemp, Joey Votto, Shane Victorino, Derrek Lee, Chris Iannetta, Mark Teixeira, Randy Winn.

More debatable inclusions:
Cristian Guzman: Depends how much you think mediocre defense at a premium position is worth over bad defense at a low-end position.
Ryan Braun: How bad does a slugger's defense have to be before he's not really that valuable?
Geovany Soto: Does horrible defense mitigate itself somewhat if you get it from a good-hitting catcher? Can a catcher redeem himself through vital, yet intangible, contributions to a team?
Alfonso Soriano: Defense?!
Conor Jackson: Is the gap between a mediocre defensive 1B and a bad one enough to bridge the gap in their relative offensive production? A lot of 'flattening' must occur at first: not many guys are really that great; not many will really kill you.
Jasyon Werth: I'm actually almost sure he's better.

For me, the definition of value is just some version of "making one's team better". Pujols made his crappy team more betterer than did Howard for his (really good) team.

So its like the real voting then.

Hahaha -- yep.

[damientheomen3]

braun fielded perfectly in the OF in 07-08...

[struggles_mightily]

PMR has him slightly above average in 2008; UZR has him slightly below (-3 runs). He was also only 6th amongst NL LFers (including both Bay and Ramirez) in BatRuns. I probably shouldn't have concentrated on his defense, & I think he was better than Howard. But he wasn't a serious MVP candidate either.

[Kelric]

I let OOTP pick, because I tend to forget to vote.

[jbergey22]

This question can not easily be answered.

Is Pujols more valuable if with him the Cards win 75 games without him 50. Or is Howard more valuable with him Phils win 90 games but without him 80?

I think its a good debate because IMO Pujols is the most valuable player if you look at it in this context.

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

Pujols can be wrong about stuff. He seems like a nice, humble guy and not the sort to blow his own trumpet.

Anyway:

Ryan Howard ranked 29th (!!!!) in the NL in VORP. 47th (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) in OBP. Even in SLG, he was only 6th. 21st in WPA. Didn't crack the top 10 in OPS+, and BB-Ref's leaderboards don't go any further (I doubt he'd make the top 15 either). He did all this whilst playing below-average defense at the diamond's easiest position. Ryan Howard was the Philadelphia Phillies' 4th Most Valuable (Position) Player. If you want to make the 'the MVP must come from a successful team' argument; then I will disagree with you but concede that it has some validity. Bloodying Heck, though, at least choose a good player from a winning team.

Interesting factoid: Of the 11 full-time 1B in the NL with 500 PA or more in 2008, Howard had a better OBP than only two: Mike Jacobs and James Loney. And how many points did RH whip Loney's ass by? 1. 1 'points'.

Albert Pujols led the league in VORP, SLG (by 62 points!), MLV, OPS and OPS+. He trailed Chipper Jones in OBP by a barely-significant 8 points. He was second in WPA to Lance Berkman. He is by far the best defensive 1B in the league. If you're into trad stats then he was the only player to finish in the top 5 of all three Triple Crown categories.

I'd like to invite you all to play a little game. It's called the 'Name Baseball Playing Men Who Were More Betterer at Playing the Baseball Game in the 2008 National League of National Baseball Playing Competition than Mr. Ryan James Howard Was' game.

Anyone can join in the fun! (I've bolded first basemen and italicised Phillies. I have also included players who were traded into / out of the league in midseason -- just because they split time between two teams, it doesn't make Howard any better than them).

Albert Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, Chipper Jones, Lance Berkman, David Wright, Chase Utley, Jose Reyes, Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, Ryan Ludwick, Brian McCann, Nate McLouth, Manny Ramirez, Adrian Gonzalez, Aramis Ramirez, Jimmy Rollins, Carlos Lee, Andre Ethier, Stephen Drew, Prince Fielder, Dan Uggla, J.J. Hardy, Ryan Doumit, Carlos Delgado, Russell Martin, Troy Glaus, Matt Kemp, Joey Votto, Shane Victorino, Derrek Lee, Chris Iannetta, Mark Teixeira, Randy Winn.

More debatable inclusions:
Cristian Guzman: Depends how much you think mediocre defense at a premium position is worth over bad defense at a low-end position.
Ryan Braun: How bad does a slugger's defense have to be before he's not really that valuable?
Geovany Soto: Does horrible defense mitigate itself somewhat if you get it from a good-hitting catcher? Can a catcher redeem himself through vital, yet intangible, contributions to a team?
Alfonso Soriano: Defense?!
Conor Jackson: Is the gap between a mediocre defensive 1B and a bad one enough to bridge the gap in their relative offensive production? A lot of 'flattening' must occur at first: not many guys are really that great; not many will really kill you.
Jasyon Werth: I'm actually almost sure he's better.

For me, the definition of value is just some version of "making one's team better". Pujols made his crappy team more betterer than did Howard for his (really good) team.



Hahaha -- yep.

Post of the year.

[struggles_mightily]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This question can not easily be answered.

Is Pujols more valuable if with him the Cards win 75 games without him 50. Or is Howard more valuable with him Phils win 90 games but without him 80?

I think its a good debate because IMO Pujols is the most valuable player if you look at it in this context.

The counter-argument to this is that winning 60 games and missing the playoffs is basically "the same" as winning 80 games and missing the playoffs. So even a guy who has a 20 WARP season on such a team "can't" be MVP.

But that line of reasoning leaves itself open to easy reduction. Does a team really gain anything by losing in the first round of the playoffs? What about from winning a Divisional series but losing the pennant? Even most fans of pennant-winning teams who lose the Series will come away disappointed, especially if their club was heavily favoured. If my Red Sox had gotten blown out in four games by the Cardinals in 2004, I don't think my first thought would've been "yay! We totally won the pennant!"

So pretty quickly you're on the slippery slope to arguing that the MVP has to come from the World Champion. Which is dumb.

[Assos]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

Post of the year.

Too much Phillies praise, not enough Mets praise. So not really the post of the year! :P

I always point my finger at Andre Dawson's MVP in the late 1980s, was the best that year? The Cubs were in last place, but find a better player that year, the votes were split between the Wizard and the Ripper and Dawson won by default.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/aw...rds_1987.shtml