How do you rate pitching prospects?

Jaxxvain · 11-03-2008, 03:39 PM

I was wondering in anyone has any insight on evaluating pitching prospects in relation to the Stuff/Movement/Control.

Would you rate all 3 criteria as being equal? Or do you weigh one more heavily?

If you are using a 1-10 scale, would you rank these pitchers the same?

name - Stuff, Movement, Control
Pitcher A - 8 8 4
Pitcher B - 4 8 8
Pitcher C - 8 4 8

Let me know your thoughts.

VoteQuimby · 11-03-2008, 03:50 PM

It depends on age.

Older pitchers that have no control then it doesn't matter how good their stuff is since they can't harness it. Young pitchers with good stuff but no control can develop control and are given every opportunity to do so in my organization.

As for your three options, I prefer pitcher C

Q

Jaxxvain · 11-03-2008, 03:53 PM

I was talking about prospects only. And the ratings were the "Potentials"

PhillieFever · 11-03-2008, 04:00 PM

Personally I would rate control first,I'm not a fan of pitchers who give out free passes,after that,it really becomes era specific.In today's game,its very important to have pitchers who don't give up the longball so obviously you would want pitchers with high movement ratings,in the dead ball era,home runs were almost non existent so high stuff is the name of the game.

satchel · 11-03-2008, 04:24 PM

I've always thought that, in game terms, "Stuff" was unequivocally the most important overall rating.

phenom · 11-03-2008, 04:54 PM

Tinstaapp

Isura · 11-03-2008, 05:22 PM

Stuff/control/movement for starting pitchers. I prefer Stuff/movement/control for relievers since they often come on with runners on base

injury log · 11-03-2008, 06:00 PM

The pitching ratings aren't strictly linear -- each has a 'break' at the halfway mark. If you're on the /100 scale, improving your Control from 40 to 50 results in a much greater reduction in BBs allowed than improving from 50 to 60, for example. Because of this, you can't say that one rating is more important than another. When it comes to Control, for example, having very poor Control is absolutely crippling- a pitcher really can't be good in OOTP with very bad Control, though he can get away with pretty weak Stuff or Movement. On the other hand, having absolutely superhuman Control isn't much different from just having excellent Control.

I'd add as well that Control has a bit of a knock-on effect; it affects K rate and HR rate to a small degree. Movement also has a small effect on K rate.

conception · 11-03-2008, 06:05 PM

I really look at control the most, but it has to be in conjunction with another skill. I'm trying to see how this argument plays out now because I just called up a top prospect who has control 9, movement 8, but stuff only 6. So far he has only gotten shelled but I'm gonna give him a chance to right himself. My biggest concern is that his ground ball rate is very low, and in conjunction with the lack of real stuff it may do him in.

I have a lot of prospects right now that aqre more 8/7/8 types, but I'm gonna figure out what I have with the control specialist first.

Jaxxvain · 11-03-2008, 06:38 PM

from the online manual...

Stuff

Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire. Think of it as essentially how a pitcher "puts it all together." Stuff directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher throws.
Movement

Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs.
Control

Control is a measure of a pitcher's accuracy. Pitchers with good Control ratings tend to walk fewer batters.

Velocity

Velocity is a measure of how fast a pitcher throws. Velocity is not measured according to the standard rating system, but rather is measured in miles per hour.
Endurance

Endurance is a measure of how many pitches a pitcher can throw before tiring. Pitchers with high Endurance ratings tend to be used as starting pitchers, while pitchers with low Endurance ratings tend to be used as relief pitchers.
Hold Runners

Hold Runners is a measure of a pitcher's ability to hold runners on base. It is harder for runners on base to steal against pitchers who have high Hold Runners ratings.
Ground Ball %

Ground Ball % is a measure of how many balls hit off this pitcher are ground balls, as compared to fly balls. Pitchers with high Ground Ball % ratings tend to get more ground outs and double plays. Pitchers with low Ground Ball % ratings tend to have a lower BABIP (batting average on balls in play), because fly balls are generally more likely to turn into outs than ground balls.
About Different Pitches

Pitchers in OOTP can throw an assortment of different pitches, displayed in the Player Profile. They are also mentioned in game play-by-play. A pitcher's pitch assortment does have some very small impact on the results of a play, but generally, in OOTP's pitching model, the specific pitches do not matter. The OOTP model is such that variety of pitches and the pitcher's skill with and selection of those pitches are factored into the three main ratings of Stuff, Movement, and Control. The types of pitches a pitcher throws in OOTP do not change over the course of his career.

benallen002 · 11-03-2008, 07:18 PM

think about the defense behind the pitcher as well.

it would make sense that guys with low stuff ratings (and average movement/control) are going to allow more BIP than someone with high stuff ratings, so if your defense can give the pitcher a lower-than-average BABIP, than a low stuff rating doesn't matter that much, and could be considered a positive (think of all the SPs who "pitch to contact" IRL...if the defense is good, those are the guys that go deep in to games, and still keep a low pitch count)

mikev · 11-03-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxxvain

I was wondering in anyone has any insight on evaluating pitching prospects in relation to the Stuff/Movement/Control.

Would you rate all 3 criteria as being equal? Or do you weigh one more heavily?

If you are using a 1-10 scale, would you rank these pitchers the same?

name - Stuff, Movement, Control
Pitcher A - 8 8 4
Pitcher B - 4 8 8
Pitcher C - 8 4 8

Let me know your thoughts.

I would take pitcher B, but I also try and have nothing less than a 7 (out of 10) at any position on defense when I build my teams.

Afino · 11-03-2008, 07:38 PM

Yeah, I'd take pitcher B as well.

I can't stand a pitcher that walks a lot of batters....especially in relief.

Antonin · 11-03-2008, 07:48 PM

There was a time when I considered control to be the most important asset in my pitchers, but I've had far, far better results with high "stuff" pitchers.

If I had to choose, I would choose pitcher C.

ELDoro · 11-03-2008, 09:16 PM

I would go with pitcher A. It might be that I play with the Reds and homer field (GABP) a lot so someone that doesnt give up a lot of dingers is much needed.

My #2 choice would be pitcher B....especially if he had a high groundball %.

phillosopherp · 11-03-2008, 11:29 PM

I actually highly rate stuff. I see that as the hiding of the ball, and the difficulty of the batter picking up on the pitch. Next is control which means that he is going to probably give up less dingers. Movement I mark as very important on the older and slower guys.

Afino · 11-03-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillosopherp

Next is control which means that he is going to probably give up less dingers.

Movement

Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs.

bigMatt · 11-04-2008, 12:16 AM

Looks like this should have been a poll.

Lots of good stuff here. From my limited experience, I'll chime in with benallen on the "need good D behind him" if your pitcher's a guy who pitches to the bats. It took me a while to figure that out, and with a good D, my low stuff guys improved markedly.

Personally, I'd go with either pitcher B or C. Probably C.

For me, I'm always looking primarily at a guy's WHIP, so the fewer the baserunners, the better. That means control from my perspective, with the other elements falling secondary.

benallen002 · 11-04-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigMatt

Looks like this should have been a poll.

Lots of good stuff here. From my limited experience, I'll chime in with benallen on the "need good D behind him" if your pitcher's a guy who pitches to the bats. It took me a while to figure that out, and with a good D, my low stuff guys improved markedly.

Personally, I'd go with either pitcher B or C. Probably C.

For me, I'm always looking primarily at a guy's WHIP, so the fewer the baserunners, the better. That means control from my perspective, with the other elements falling secondary.

i used to like WHIP too, but then i realized that you can't look at WHIP without looking at BABIP right after. so my analysis starts with control and goes: BB/9, HR/9, K/BB ratio.

EDIT: again, though, this assumes that you prioritize defense over offense at almost every position (especially up the middle)

just my 2 cents.

PhillieFever · 11-04-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benallen002

i used to like WHIP too, but then i realized that you can't look at WHIP without looking at BABIP right after. so my analysis starts with control and goes: BB/9, HR/9, K/BB ratio.

EDIT: again, though, this assumes that you prioritize defense over offense at almost every position (especially up the middle)

just my 2 cents.

I'm also big on defense up the middle,I feel its the conerstone of your club.Look at the Phillies for example,Rollins,Utley,Victorino....World Champions

11-03-2008, 03:39 PM	#1
Jaxxvain All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 531	How do you rate pitching prospects? I was wondering in anyone has any insight on evaluating pitching prospects in relation to the Stuff/Movement/Control. Would you rate all 3 criteria as being equal? Or do you weigh one more heavily? If you are using a 1-10 scale, would you rank these pitchers the same? name - Stuff, Movement, Control Pitcher A - 8 8 4 Pitcher B - 4 8 8 Pitcher C - 8 4 8 Let me know your thoughts.

11-03-2008, 04:00 PM	#4
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	Personally I would rate control first,I'm not a fan of pitchers who give out free passes,after that,it really becomes era specific.In today's game,its very important to have pitchers who don't give up the longball so obviously you would want pitchers with high movement ratings,in the dead ball era,home runs were almost non existent so high stuff is the name of the game. __________________ We're All Wednesday Aren't We? WAWAW Last edited by PhillieFever; 11-03-2008 at 05:55 PM.

11-03-2008, 04:24 PM	#5
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	I've always thought that, in game terms, "Stuff" was unequivocally the most important overall rating. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

11-03-2008, 04:54 PM	#6
phenom Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Near the Great Wall. On the GOOD side. Posts: 3,763	Tinstaapp __________________ reported

11-03-2008, 07:38 PM	#13
Afino Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 3,828	Yeah, I'd take pitcher B as well. I can't stand a pitcher that walks a lot of batters....especially in relief. __________________ GUBA: Moscow Enforcers

11-03-2008, 03:50 PM	#2
VoteQuimby Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 36	It depends on age. Older pitchers that have no control then it doesn't matter how good their stuff is since they can't harness it. Young pitchers with good stuff but no control can develop control and are given every opportunity to do so in my organization. As for your three options, I prefer pitcher C Q __________________ The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done. George Carlin

11-03-2008, 03:53 PM	#3
Jaxxvain All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 531	I was talking about prospects only. And the ratings were the "Potentials"

11-03-2008, 05:22 PM	#7
Isura Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 361	Stuff/control/movement for starting pitchers. I prefer Stuff/movement/control for relievers since they often come on with runners on base

11-03-2008, 06:00 PM	#8
injury log Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 9,162	The pitching ratings aren't strictly linear -- each has a 'break' at the halfway mark. If you're on the /100 scale, improving your Control from 40 to 50 results in a much greater reduction in BBs allowed than improving from 50 to 60, for example. Because of this, you can't say that one rating is more important than another. When it comes to Control, for example, having very poor Control is absolutely crippling- a pitcher really can't be good in OOTP with very bad Control, though he can get away with pretty weak Stuff or Movement. On the other hand, having absolutely superhuman Control isn't much different from just having excellent Control. I'd add as well that Control has a bit of a knock-on effect; it affects K rate and HR rate to a small degree. Movement also has a small effect on K rate.

11-03-2008, 06:05 PM	#9
conception All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,150	I really look at control the most, but it has to be in conjunction with another skill. I'm trying to see how this argument plays out now because I just called up a top prospect who has control 9, movement 8, but stuff only 6. So far he has only gotten shelled but I'm gonna give him a chance to right himself. My biggest concern is that his ground ball rate is very low, and in conjunction with the lack of real stuff it may do him in. I have a lot of prospects right now that aqre more 8/7/8 types, but I'm gonna figure out what I have with the control specialist first.

11-03-2008, 06:38 PM	#10
Jaxxvain All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 531	from the online manual... Stuff Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire. Think of it as essentially how a pitcher "puts it all together." Stuff directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher throws. Movement Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs. Control Control is a measure of a pitcher's accuracy. Pitchers with good Control ratings tend to walk fewer batters. Velocity Velocity is a measure of how fast a pitcher throws. Velocity is not measured according to the standard rating system, but rather is measured in miles per hour. Endurance Endurance is a measure of how many pitches a pitcher can throw before tiring. Pitchers with high Endurance ratings tend to be used as starting pitchers, while pitchers with low Endurance ratings tend to be used as relief pitchers. Hold Runners Hold Runners is a measure of a pitcher's ability to hold runners on base. It is harder for runners on base to steal against pitchers who have high Hold Runners ratings. Ground Ball % Ground Ball % is a measure of how many balls hit off this pitcher are ground balls, as compared to fly balls. Pitchers with high Ground Ball % ratings tend to get more ground outs and double plays. Pitchers with low Ground Ball % ratings tend to have a lower BABIP (batting average on balls in play), because fly balls are generally more likely to turn into outs than ground balls. About Different Pitches Pitchers in OOTP can throw an assortment of different pitches, displayed in the Player Profile. They are also mentioned in game play-by-play. A pitcher's pitch assortment does have some very small impact on the results of a play, but generally, in OOTP's pitching model, the specific pitches do not matter. The OOTP model is such that variety of pitches and the pitcher's skill with and selection of those pitches are factored into the three main ratings of Stuff, Movement, and Control. The types of pitches a pitcher throws in OOTP do not change over the course of his career.

11-03-2008, 07:18 PM	#11
benallen002 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 192	think about the defense behind the pitcher as well. it would make sense that guys with low stuff ratings (and average movement/control) are going to allow more BIP than someone with high stuff ratings, so if your defense can give the pitcher a lower-than-average BABIP, than a low stuff rating doesn't matter that much, and could be considered a positive (think of all the SPs who "pitch to contact" IRL...if the defense is good, those are the guys that go deep in to games, and still keep a low pitch count)

11-03-2008, 07:48 PM	#14
Antonin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,536	There was a time when I considered control to be the most important asset in my pitchers, but I've had far, far better results with high "stuff" pitchers. If I had to choose, I would choose pitcher C. __________________ "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" - Johnny Rotten (Sex Pistols), San Francisco, 14 January 1978

11-03-2008, 09:16 PM	#15
ELDoro All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 535	I would go with pitcher A. It might be that I play with the Reds and homer field (GABP) a lot so someone that doesnt give up a lot of dingers is much needed. My #2 choice would be pitcher B....especially if he had a high groundball %. __________________ MLNB Commish: https://statsplus.net/mlnb/

11-03-2008, 11:29 PM	#16
phillosopherp All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 512	I actually highly rate stuff. I see that as the hiding of the ball, and the difficulty of the batter picking up on the pitch. Next is control which means that he is going to probably give up less dingers. Movement I mark as very important on the older and slower guys.

11-04-2008, 12:16 AM	#18
bigMatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 2,378	Looks like this should have been a poll. Lots of good stuff here. From my limited experience, I'll chime in with benallen on the "need good D behind him" if your pitcher's a guy who pitches to the bats. It took me a while to figure that out, and with a good D, my low stuff guys improved markedly. Personally, I'd go with either pitcher B or C. Probably C. For me, I'm always looking primarily at a guy's WHIP, so the fewer the baserunners, the better. That means control from my perspective, with the other elements falling secondary.