Is a championship really so important?

DamnYankees · 10-31-2006, 03:24 PM

A lot of people seem to think that winning a championship is the ultimate goal. It's everything, and if you don't do it, its not worth playing. I'm talking both about real life and just play - OOTP online leagues, for example.

Am I weird for really not thinking championships are all that important? Yes, its a nice cap to the season and a great way of counting years (sort of like Roman Consuls in a weird way). For example, in the OOTP league I played in (TWB), teams would often trade away their HOF, 15 year veteran pitcher for a few prospects in order to rebuild, since they want to get another ring. A I crazy for thinking I'd much rather lose for the next few years and keep this guy on my team?

This isn't a question about "can you be great if you never won a ring," but rather the very point of sports in the first place. Sports exist because we enjoy them, and for no other reason - they are not necessary. Isn't there a deeper fabric than merely a championship?

I guess I see championships as *one* way in which stories develop in sports, but I really don't consider it the *point* of sports.

bababui · 10-31-2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

A lot of people seem to think that winning a championship is the ultimate goal. It's everything, and if you don't do it, its not worth playing. I'm talking both about real life and just play - OOTP online leagues, for example.

Am I weird for really not thinking championships are all that important? Yes, its a nice cap to the season and a great way of counting years (sort of like Roman Consuls in a weird way). For example, in the OOTP league I played in (TWB), teams would often trade away their HOF, 15 year veteran pitcher for a few prospects in order to rebuild, since they want to get another ring. A I crazy for thinking I'd much rather lose for the next few years and keep this guy on my team?

This isn't a question about "can you be great if you never won a ring," but rather the very point of sports in the first place. Sports exist because we enjoy them, and for no other reason - they are not necessary. Isn't there a deeper fabric than merely a championship?

I guess I see championships as *one* way in which stories develop in sports, but I really don't consider it the *point* of sports.

In soccer, no, because of the vast disparity in resources. Most clubs are happy with an upper half finish. But in American sports, IMO, we arent happy with mediocrity. Also, Americans are raised to believe that they can rise to the top, whatever the obsticles. No one likes to be identified with a loser.

andymac · 10-31-2006, 03:41 PM

I think, typically, a championship tends to be more important to those who havn't won one in a while.

DamnYankees · 10-31-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I think, typically, a championship tends to be more important to those who havn't won one in a while.

Interesting idea. Let me ask a hypothetical question to see how it holds up. If the Red Sox could have traded Ted Williams in 1958 for a championship, would,m and should, they have done it?

andymac · 10-31-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Interesting idea. Let me ask a hypothetical question to see how it holds up. If the Red Sox could have traded Ted Williams in 1958 for a championship, would,m and should, they have done it?

If they could look into the future and see that they would not win one with him and by trading him they would win one, I don't think they would even think twice about it...he would be gone.

eriqjaffe · 10-31-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I think, typically, a championship tends to be more important to those who havn't won one in a while.

Y'know, I was thinking how funny it is that a Yankee fan would start this thread.

jeheinz72 · 10-31-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Interesting idea. Let me ask a hypothetical question to see how it holds up. If the Red Sox could have traded Ted Williams in 1958 for a championship, would,m and should, they have done it?

Yes. You have to realize that every team, no matter how loaded or underdog has that player that transcends the team. If they dealt Williams and won a ring, then just replace the new name for the leader for Williams in the amount of regard fans hold.
Maybe Pete Runnels or Jackie Jensen becomes Boston's hero. The fans have the same feeling as they would in reality, but a title to make it all even more worth it.

IMO, some of Williams greatness is curtailed by his inability to win the title, or even making the Series just once. I know that's not your question, but it's still what I feel.

marioh · 10-31-2006, 03:49 PM

My ultimate goal in playing any type of competitive sport or competition was to win. It didn't matter if it was football, softball, basketball, card games, video games, winning was, and always will be, my #1 priority. Playing well was always a secondary concern to winning, and I rarely had positive thoughts of the game/competition if I had lost.

So winning a championship is extremely important to me, especially on teams I've played for.

Green & Gold Heart · 10-31-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I think, typically, a championship tends to be more important to those who havn't won one in a while.

Spoken by a man who knows what he's talking about!

I think for me in my A's fandom, I feel some level of success in just being competitve and being in the race every year. Watching meaningful games is important, even though ultimately losing is disappointing.

1998 Yankees · 10-31-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

Y'know, I was thinking how funny it is that a Yankee fan would start this thread.

Actually, I have intepreted his user name to be anti-Yankee, not that it matters. He raises an interesting point that perhaps goes back to a time when sportsmanship, athleticism, and enjoyment were more important than "win at all costs." Everyone should strive for the best and a championship is an indication of that, but not winning the championship does not mean being a loser, IMO. And I am a Yankee fan.

Unfortunately, the "win or be a loser" mentality is ingrained in our society and culture. It's not going away in our lifetimes, either.

andymac · 10-31-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

I think for me in my A's fandom, I feel some level of success in just being competitve and being in the race every year. Watching meaningful games is important, even though ultimately losing is disappointing.

I definitely agree with this...over the last 10 years or so (prior to this season) I would much rather be a Cardinal or A's fan than, say, a Marlin fan. The Marlins got a couple of championships but other than that have done a lot of losing. The Cardinals & A's are always there late in the year and at least have a chance, even if prior to this season neither had come out on top.

1998 Yankees · 10-31-2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I definitely agree with this...over the last 10 years or so (prior to this season) I would much rather be a Cardinal or A's fan than, say, a Marlin fan. The Marlins got a couple of championships but other than that have done a lot of losing. The Cardinals & A's are always there late in the year and at least have a chance, even if prior to this season neither had come out on top.

This is how I feel about the Yankees since 2000. Yes, I acknowledge the tons of money Steinbrenner has spent keeping them strong.

Even considering this spending, I am not disappointed that the Yanks have not won the WS in six years. Do I wish they had? Sure, but I'm not devastated that they have not; they've been competitive (nine straight division titles) and enjoyable to watch all that time.

DamnYankees · 10-31-2006, 04:09 PM

I hate the Yankees more than anything on this Earth.

1998 Yankees · 10-31-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

I hate the Yankees more than anything on this Earth.

Aha! I knew it!

DamnYankees · 10-31-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Aha! I knew it!

Not like I try to hide it.

Them getting knocked out was almost enough to make me ok with my Dodgers flaming.

The Professor · 10-31-2006, 04:23 PM

Short and simple. Yes. Winning is, ultimately, the only thing that matters.*

*I think this is especially true, as bababui and others intimate above, of American sports.

Also, I don't necessarily believe that this is true:

Quote:

Sports exist because we enjoy them, and for no other reason - they are not necessary.

In fact, I would suggest that the history of sport says otherwise and that sports serve a purpose above and beyond "entertainment" even if that purpose is ultimately defined by the spectator.

eriqjaffe · 10-31-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Aha! I knew it!

...and I misread it. DY, my apologies.

<Pion> · 10-31-2006, 04:38 PM

I'm one who doesn't think Championships are the ultimate at the expense of all else. In OOTP, after winning a couple (goes back to the how many you win comment), the most important thing was for me to have players I enjoyed following the careers of. Plus it got annoying having people complain about my team winning. So I found that I was much happier and enjoyed the league more when I traded away all my vets for a bunch of interesting kids that I could watch for many seasons to come. But it does help if you're at least competitive and have a shot at the post-season now again. Stats and player history ended up being what I enjoy in an online league.

Real life is similar but not exactly the same. I alway root for my team to do the best they can but don't mind seeing them trade a stud veteran with only a few years left to get a potential phenom that might be able to help the team for years to come. Unfortunately that usually doesn't play out that way since even if you get a phenom, in many instances he won't be on your team after x number of years due to free agency, trades, etc (See Mike Piazza, I was convinced they would never let him go but boy was I ever wrong).

JDOldSchool · 10-31-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

A lot of people seem to think that winning a championship is the ultimate goal. It's everything, and if you don't do it, its not worth playing. I'm talking both about real life and just play - OOTP online leagues, for example.

Am I weird for really not thinking championships are all that important? Yes, its a nice cap to the season and a great way of counting years (sort of like Roman Consuls in a weird way). For example, in the OOTP league I played in (TWB), teams would often trade away their HOF, 15 year veteran pitcher for a few prospects in order to rebuild, since they want to get another ring. A I crazy for thinking I'd much rather lose for the next few years and keep this guy on my team?

This isn't a question about "can you be great if you never won a ring," but rather the very point of sports in the first place. Sports exist because we enjoy them, and for no other reason - they are not necessary. Isn't there a deeper fabric than merely a championship?

I guess I see championships as *one* way in which stories develop in sports, but I really don't consider it the *point* of sports.

Anybody who has even a modicum of competitive juice in their body would strongly disagree with this statement. The point of competition is winning, ideally through just means (that should cover the "win at all costs" comment in this thread). If you're not playing to win, there's no point in playing. And if you are playing to win, the point is to win it all as many times as you possibly can.

There is something to be said for giving it your best and all that, but really, second place always will be the best loser.

If you are the general manager of your baseball team, your job depends on you doing what you can to win games. If you do anything that you know is going to make your team worse with no plan to ultimately make it better (as is the case in rebuilding), you're not doing your job.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'm one who doesn't think Championships are the ultimate at the expense of all else. In OOTP, after winning a couple (goes back to the how many you win comment), the most important thing was for me to have players I enjoyed following the careers of. Plus it got annoying having people complain about my team winning. So I found that I was much happier and enjoyed the league more when I traded away all my vets for a bunch of interesting kids that I could watch for many seasons to come. But it does help if you're at least competitive and have a shot at the post-season now again. Stats and player history ended up being what I enjoy in an online league.

That's fine because you're in an online league for your enjoyment and that's the main goal. But if you're playing or managing or general managing in the real world this never should take place.

Melo · 10-31-2006, 04:50 PM

It's not about reaching the goal but the path that is taken to get there that is most important to me.

10-31-2006, 03:41 PM	#3
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	I think, typically, a championship tends to be more important to those who havn't won one in a while. __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

10-31-2006, 03:49 PM	#8
marioh All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 1,162	My ultimate goal in playing any type of competitive sport or competition was to win. It didn't matter if it was football, softball, basketball, card games, video games, winning was, and always will be, my #1 priority. Playing well was always a secondary concern to winning, and I rarely had positive thoughts of the game/competition if I had lost. So winning a championship is extremely important to me, especially on teams I've played for. Last edited by marioh; 10-31-2006 at 04:01 PM.

10-31-2006, 03:24 PM	#1
DamnYankees All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,644	Is a championship really so important? A lot of people seem to think that winning a championship is the ultimate goal. It's everything, and if you don't do it, its not worth playing. I'm talking both about real life and just play - OOTP online leagues, for example. Am I weird for really not thinking championships are all that important? Yes, its a nice cap to the season and a great way of counting years (sort of like Roman Consuls in a weird way). For example, in the OOTP league I played in (TWB), teams would often trade away their HOF, 15 year veteran pitcher for a few prospects in order to rebuild, since they want to get another ring. A I crazy for thinking I'd much rather lose for the next few years and keep this guy on my team? This isn't a question about "can you be great if you never won a ring," but rather the very point of sports in the first place. Sports exist because we enjoy them, and for no other reason - they are not necessary. Isn't there a deeper fabric than merely a championship? I guess I see championships as one way in which stories develop in sports, but I really don't consider it the point of sports.

10-31-2006, 04:09 PM	#13
DamnYankees All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,644	I hate the Yankees more than anything on this Earth.

10-31-2006, 04:38 PM	#18
<Pion> All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,428	I'm one who doesn't think Championships are the ultimate at the expense of all else. In OOTP, after winning a couple (goes back to the how many you win comment), the most important thing was for me to have players I enjoyed following the careers of. Plus it got annoying having people complain about my team winning. So I found that I was much happier and enjoyed the league more when I traded away all my vets for a bunch of interesting kids that I could watch for many seasons to come. But it does help if you're at least competitive and have a shot at the post-season now again. Stats and player history ended up being what I enjoy in an online league. Real life is similar but not exactly the same. I alway root for my team to do the best they can but don't mind seeing them trade a stud veteran with only a few years left to get a potential phenom that might be able to help the team for years to come. Unfortunately that usually doesn't play out that way since even if you get a phenom, in many instances he won't be on your team after x number of years due to free agency, trades, etc (See Mike Piazza, I was convinced they would never let him go but boy was I ever wrong).

10-31-2006, 04:50 PM	#20
Melo All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Where the baned reside Posts: 1,428	It's not about reaching the goal but the path that is taken to get there that is most important to me.